1938 Scuderia Ferrari built Alfa Romeo 8C 2600

http://alfa8c2600.blogspot.com/

What you think, any period photos ?

 

I was thinking of making a post and asking the same question about a month ago!
I had just bought Murray Raineys book 'Alfa Romeo - Ferrari' having lost the old copy I got from Murray himself before he died. I have to say I'm pretty convinced he's right and it is as claimed 'The first Ferrari'
If anyone is interested to get the book I got mine from www.autonetcarbooks.com.
It also has info on his 2 other Alfa specials: a supercharged 6C2300B and an unfinished 8C 3.2 engined Monza type project which I'm kicking myself for not buying about 5 years ago for £75000.
I've got a 6C2500 with a set of Murrays finned blower manifolds and got the book again to see how he mounted them only to be suprised that his 6C had 2 blowers, not one.

 

This car should be cherished not just because of the Ferrari connection but because of the Alfa Romeo components when Alfa Romeo was "the" car company.

All competition Alfa Romeos of this period have Ferrari connections ... yes he ran the works cars. As far as I am concerned the first Ferrari has a Ferrari engine, otherwise we are looking at specials made/modified by his race shop, which there are many of.
Pete

 

If Ferrari built this car himself, it s a Ferrari.
When Pagani built a car with Mercedes engine, it s a Pagani, not a Mercedes !

 

Thus you are saying that all P3 Alfa Romeos should have their name removed and be rebadged Ferraris?

Scuderia Ferrari was just a race team, racing Alfa Romeos ... so he had some bits left over and made another Alfa Romeo ... it's not a Ferrari IMO. Even the chassis is an Alfa Romeo chassis ...

The only thing Ferrari's company might have made is the engine to an Alfa Romeo design, but yes modified ... and some bodywork. Thus it's an Alfa Romeo special that just happened to be made in Scuderia Ferrari's workshop.

Many people have made Alfa Romeo specials ... they are still called Alfa Romeos.
Pete

 

Chassis usually defines the marque or make, but there are so many exceptions and specials that no one rule can apply.

I find it interesting how all the black&white photos are from a later period (the 70s?). Did this one get a chance to race before war broke out?

 

I beleieve it is undocumented until it came out of Eritrea in 1967.

 

I agree with you but "many people" is not Enzo Ferrari. A Car made by Enzo will always be different. And a Alfa made by Enzo is better than a Alfa made by Bidee
Now, with so many positives elements, it s a great car in my opinion.

 

There isn't a single shread of evidence that this car has any connection with Ferrari, nor that it was built in the late 1930s. IMO, it is an Australian special made in the late 1940s or early 1950s from parts of an 6c2300 short chassis car (shortened even further from 118" to 104"), with the rear suspension totally modified, and an 8c2300 engine, enlarged to 2600cc installed in the modified chassis.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=414489#post414489

 

I guess that is why Philippe is asking if there are any period photos.

Regards,

Art S.

 

As always your research is very interesting.

Best

 

Read the thread Dr. Stu references. Read the first post.

 

Jim,

I did read before I posted (my favorite is post 7 in the other thread by the way...). Stu and others feel it's a bitsa with no known history prior to '67; likely created in the '40s or '50s. Based on both threads, I have surmised that Philippe is trying to prove that this car was built by Ferrari’s shop in '38 and has a race history in North Africa by finding a picture of the car from that time (and proving that the picture he finds is definately of the car). The real debate will occur once this picture that is claimed to be of this car turns up .

Regards,

Art S.

 

Does he own it yet or is he trying to create the history before he buys it?
Anton

 

I don t try to prove anythings, I just help a friend. Now concerning the comments of Alfabb, Stu and Co have no knowledge, everythings that they don t known don t exist in their heads !. Theirs opinions are always negatives, they never travel, never participate in any shows, they are simple internet self appointed experts.

Anyway, they are too many evidences that show that this car is related to Ferrari "it is fitted with an 8C 2600 engine, modified from a 2.3 in the way which the Scuderia Ferrari used on their Monzas, i.e. it has a carburettor for the supercharged engine marked "DCF1 Tipo 36 18C". These carburettors were only manufactured for the Scuderia Ferrari in Modena. ""

Any real constructive comments are welcome.

 

In UK, I grew up watching Murray Rainey hillclimbing this car at Prescott and Shelsley Walsh at Vintage Sport Car Club meetings - it was and is a fantastic car with a glorious sound and plenty of bhp! I am not a pre-war Alfa historian and the car always intrigued me as it made the same sound as a Monza -but wasn't! I concluded long ago that this was one man's superb interpretation of a pre-war "blown" Alfa, that's has been enjoyed in its current format for almost 40 years and is more than a match for an upgraded Bentley 4.5 or Vauxhall 30/98.

It was offered via auction in UK sometime back and precisely the same issues being discussed in this thread were raised at the time, resulting in a no sale.......

If anyone is interested in the car - its for sale in Brussels

http://www.automobilesvanderveken.com/

 

Does anyone know if the crank shaft in this car is:
#2221186 ?

 

Exemple of a good post, at the time of auction, the car didn t sell because the reserve was not meet.
In Monterey, a replica Alfa just sold for 1 million $. The car was built before prewar, and I was not born ! like most of us.
With no records before pre war and will all people involve may be dead, we just have to read the evidences and theses one are quite clear with all the Scuderia Ferrari parts on it ( only available by the Scuderia ).
This car needs to be inspected by a real buyer and this one will see by himself all the evidences when the internet experts will comment after seeing a bad photos.

Real enthousiams are welcome to go in Belgium and look at the car. Thank You for your time

 

Murray Rainey doen't mention a crank number as far as I can see, though he states there was no engine number.
I really recommend reading his book to get some perspective on this whole question.
The evidence is wholly circumstantial but to me quite persuasive.
Dretc's view that it is a special built in the 40's or 50's is based on speculation too. Can he tell us if he's read the book?
Clearly the car could have been built up at any time.
The more compelling reasons to think it was prewar are quite numerous. I think I'll scan 2 or 3 of the relevant pages and post them for those who don't have the book....

 

An Australian special made in Eritrea in the 40's or 50's? The car came from Eritrea in 1967. Photo of the shipping invoice is in the book.

 

It's been more than 10 years since I read Rainey's book, and don't remember all the details. A fair number of Alfas wound up in Eritrea (Ethiopia).

I don't remember if the car came to Australia "as is", or does the shipping document only indicate that the 6c2300 chassis was in Eritrea prior to 1967?

Even if the car came to Australia "as is", I don't remember any evidence in the book that gave any proof to the car actually being built by Ferrari, prior to WW2.

IMO, the car is an interesting post-war Alfa special, but nothing more.

 

I decided to send the whole of Chap 12 which is a resume.
I hope it fits...
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The shipping document is to UK where Murray bought the car from Peter Giddings. It was never in Australia. Perhaps you're confusing the fact that Murray was Australian, though living in England from 1959.
There is no proof that the car was built by Ferrari. It just seems a likely possibility.
There's another (later) chapter about the Ferrari connection if people are interested for me to post it.

 

Am I right in thinking that all the Alfas that went to Eritrea went pre-war?
If so it would seem most unlikely that all the special bits could have been assembled out there post-war, hence it must be a pre-war special.