TR possible gear box broke. Need help!!!!!!!!

This may become long-winded but I hope to supply as much information for anyone that can help me to understand the events and observation I know happen. Hopefully you can tell me what you think is wrong or what broke. I appreciate any help in advance.

I have had my '88 TR in the shop for over 9 months with various things done since I ran over a 4”X4”X18” wooden post at 65mph. I ran over it with the left side wheels only on the freeway at night and did not see it until it was too late. There was a car beside me on the right and to the left was a slim 2 foot shoulder with a Jersey barrier as the median. Both rims (3-piece Speedlines) were bent but repairable and the lower-left front control arm was bent and replaced. There was a calamity of issues that caused FOS to take so long to finish the repair but I won’t vent those here.

Anyway, yesterday I finally was able to pick up the car from FOS and was just so happy to be able to drive it again (as you can imagine). I got on I-5 North from Seattle and travelled 30 miles without a hint of issues until I heard and felt a hard thump at the right rear wheel. At first I thought I ran over something, again, but I know for fact I did not. I also thought that they may have left behind a tool somewhere and it dislodged and fell to the ground and I ran it over. So I slowed down and worked my way over to the far right lane and I heard and felt the noise again, but not as loud as the first. So I pulled on to the shoulder, slowed down to a craw and while still in gear the right-rear wheel locked up and I brought the car to a stop. I got out and could see a skid mark on the pavement from the wheel lock up and only on the right side. I opened the rear deck lid and reach down to the right half shaft to check and see if it could have been a CV joint but it was free in that it did move slightly back and forth without resistance or slop. I checked the left half shaft for comparisons and it too felt the same/normal.

I called AAA and then the owner of FOS to let him know what happened. He did offer a tow truck but I let him know a AAA flat bed was on the way already. He said he would be there when I told him I would come with the car.

I got back in the car, put it in reverse hoping to unlock the wheel before the flat bed showed up and was successful. I then put it in 1st and was able to move about 15 feet and the right rear locked up again. I tried this again but this time when I put it in 1st, I kept the clutch in and let the car roll down the hill and it locked up once more in about 10 feet. And that was with the clutch pedal depressed.

While waiting for the tow truck, I looked in the engine bay for anything obvious and did not find anything out of sorts. I then looked underneath the engine and noticed a lot of either engine or gear oil on the engine/tranny cover that is on the engine oil sump side. I am fairly anal about my car and I do my own light maintenance to include engine oil and gear oil changes. I have been under this car a few times but I have never seen this accumulation of oil under it. I since have wondered a lot about that observation.

The car and I got back to FOS. It was off loaded backwards in neutral with no lockup and I explained to the owner of FOS what had happened in detail. He stated that it didn’t make since that if I had the clutch pedal in while in 1st gear rolling and that it still locked up. I am not the smartest guy on the planet but, wouldn’t the car rolling while turning the wheels and in 1st gear still make the internal shafts/gears to still turn inside the tranny? He did make the promise that he would return car to me “better than when it first came in condition” (9 months ago) at all cost.

If anyone has any input, I would surely appreciate it.
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Is there any chance that the right rear brake was locking?

 

That would make more sense (and be cheaper to fix...) than the gearbox failing. Maybe 9 months in the shop was enough to seize the caliper?

 

I did feel the right rear e-brake drum thru the wheel slots to see if it was hot and it was not. I also looked at the caliper and pad on that side too but did not see or feel anything unusual.

I will put that on a list for questions that I will ask on Tuesday when I call FOS.

Thanks for the suggestions! I really need those kinds of thoughts.

 

Sounds to me like a diff failure, but I certainly am not a professional Ferrari tech.

 

+1

 

Funny you should suggest that. The owner of FOS responded when I suggested that to him with "do not even say diff problem; I do not want to hear that".

Isn't this a sorry sight!
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Sounds like the differential carrier came apart, damaging the transaxle housing (oil leak) in the process.

 

Sounds exactly like a brake locked up.

Same thing happened to me in my Thunderbird. - Same wheel, in fact.
The pad must had broken and fell out and the piston had contacted the disk and cocked, freezing up the wheel.
The fact that you freed the wheel by moving backward tends to reinforce my belief.

I had to pull over numerous times to get home.

 

I don't think it would be a brake issue, if it was then why all the gear oil. I am sure he would have smelt burning brake pads also and the rotor/wheel sould have been very hot to the touch. I also think it has to do with a differential issue. Did you have the fluids changed? If so did it have the friction reducer in it? I know the carrier housing in the "Testarossa" not the TR as described in the thread is a 2 piece housing that was welded together from the factory. The heat affected zones of anything that is welded is the weak spot since it can get brittle when the piece is welded. The Late model 512 TRs had the upgrade done to it with a solid machined carrier housing than the welded one. I don't think it would be your input shaft which I understand it to be another common issue with these cars. If it was, then I don't think you would have been able to drive it 15 feet. I wouldn't try driving it if I were you. If the differential is locked up then it could stress the input shaft and break that. If that breaks then you got some real big issues to deal with. I am no expert on these cars, but I have done my research on them. Eventually when I get my 512 TR, I will be able to lend more hands on advice to the group. But I am hoping I don't ever go down that path. Good luck

 

I am hoping that is the cause but if it is, I am going to kick myself in the 4th point of contact because I had taken tools with me that would have let me do that on the spot or at FOS where it would have been safer and in front of the owner, may be.

No on the gear oil change lately. It was done in Dec of 2005 (roughly 5K miles ago). I used Swepco and no additive. Was not aware of the friction reducer. Can you please explain what the is?

Thank you for your responses and opinions. Please keep them coming, I want ammo for Tuesday if FOS is clueless and I need to give them some.

 

FoS isn't clueless. I'm sure they've seen it before. Every TR on the road is subject to this failure. The upgrade is to get the 512TR/M diff, plus diff covers. Look for a salvage 512TR before popping for a new diff. My first call would be to Eurospares in England on Monday. They don't have a Labor Day holiday, so at least you're a day ahead of the game.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles. And I truely hope it's an easier fix that you expect.

But I really want to comment on that 2nd pic of your car on the flatbed. That's a great shot.

Now we all know what a TR looks like as a pursuit vehicle

And from the bet POV too. i.e., after he's passed you!

 

Pat, thanks for that heads up.

I agree that once they look at it closely on Tuesday, they will find the issue. But, is it possible if the car sat for 9 month, could the gear box gaskets shrink enough to leak the gear oil out?

And if so, wouldn't you think that they would notice it and check all fluid levels to be safe?

I just knew someone would point that out. My SO said the exact thing when she saw that picture.

This is NOT the best way to view my car, in the passenger seat of a tow truck looking out the sideview mirror!
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I'm just guessing but it is possible that the input shaft bearing had spun out of the housing or the casing. (I hope not)
Just a thought cause it happened to me

 

When that happen to you, were there any large amounts of gear oil spilled and any part of the tranny casing fractured/broke?

It is hard to tell if that did happen in this case. I did not think to look at the output shaft area and did not know if all of the gear oil leaked out because all of the issues began way before I stopped.

Thanks for your experience/bummer

 

This happen about ten years ago when the bearing spun out of the housing, part of the gearbox/differential casing crack and yes there were some gear oil spillage and the rear right wheel were locked up. The diiference with mine is that my gear were stuck in second gear and I couldn't move the stick no matter how hard I tried, everything inside the gearbox was screwd up including synchro rings and shift forks. Hopefully yours is repairable or at least rebuildable cause mine were not I had to get a whole new (used) tranny.
keep us inform with you situation. Thanks

 

Hey, thanks for the imput!

I need all the info possible to figure this out.

Here is the email I sent to FOS:

From: Joe Duch [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2007 4:26 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: To: Tino, Mark & Rob in reference to Joe Duch's 1988 Testarossa

Tino, Mark and Rob,

BTW, I wanting to CC FNA but unfortunately for me, a Google search could not find an email address for them. Fortunate: bringing some good thing not foreseen as certain

As you may know already, and possibly from Tino, my car broke down on I-5 North Saturday after I picked it up. You could only imagine how good it felt to finally have my car back. I am a 20 year Veteran in the US Army Special Forces and I spent a lot of time away from home and still had confidence that I could, as planned, spend the Labor Day weekend with my Testarossa and friends in Mount Vernon, WA. Even though I had hoped to pick it up Thursday, I was still grateful to at least pick it up Saturday. If you put yourself in my place and age, I hope you may understand the sacrifice I made for our Country. I spent a lot of my life away from our Country and now that I am retired, I had hoped that I could pursue my dream to fulfill every opportunity I have left to enjoy a normal life back home. Sadly to say, that did not happen for me on Saturday but, I hope your weekend turned out as you planned.

As you know, I am a very patient man because of the hardships I have endured. But I think that we have stretched that patience far more than you would have seen from the average Ferrari owner. I had to save my money for over 9 years to buy my Testarossa because I simply could not write a check without a second thought. I even do most of the work on my car because I could never afford to have it serviced at any shop. This whole episode has not been a pleasant one to say the least. And I do understand the frustration that FOS has endured, especially with the wheels and the USAA estimator getting a supplemental payment and the funds here in a timely matter. I can only asked that you to take care of me this one last time.

Tino said to me yesterday that “I would get my car back better than when it first came here”. I will hold him to his word.

I noticed yesterday and last Saturday, that the rear deck lid release handle was broken. Why? Also, I noticed yesterday when I finally could get into the car, that the whole e-brake assembly was eschew and sloppy with the coverings loose and not secured. It seemed the hand brake handle travelled far more than the last time I adjusted it. What happen there? This was not like that when it was sent to you. Lastly, there are scuff marks at the left side of the rear window sill. Somebody there replaced the rear window, so why wasn’t that taken care of?

For yours and my record, this is what has happen in the last 9 months:

I have had my '88 TR in your shop for over 9 months with various things done since I ran over a 4”X4”X18” wooden post at 65mph. I ran over it with the left side wheels only on the freeway at night and did not see it until it was too late. There was a car beside me on the right and to the left was a slim 2 foot shoulder with a Jersey barrier as the median. The left-front chassis had to be straightened (delayed because only technician trusted to do “Bird Cage Frames” was in Italy for 599 training), both rims (3-piece Speedlines) were bent but repairable (not under your control and took more than 4 months). After an alignment and then being sent to the paint shop the car came back because a front lower-left control arm was broken/bent? And then the numerous delays because of “warranty work”. Then finally, the fender was painted 3 TIMES before the color matched. I know you do not perform this work yourself but, why was it even accepted the first time. I came up last weekend with, or without the insurance check arriving, and was prepared to take it home as I told Eric (Brickly?), I would pay the bill in full and worry about getting reimbursed later, minus the insurance deductable. Only to see the color too dark, the seam between the fender and “A” pillar not caulked, left-front fender lower than the hood and the left side Cavallino Rampante valve stem caps missing on both left wheels! DETAILS, who is looking for that?

Anyway, I finally was able to pick up the car and was incredibly happy to be able to drive it again (as you can imagine). I got on I-5 North from Seattle and travelled 30 miles without a hint of issues until I heard and felt a hard thump at the right rear wheel. At first I thought I ran over something again, but I know for fact I did not. I also thought that may be a tool somewhere was left behind and it dislodged, fell to the ground and I ran it over. So I slowed down and worked my way over to the far right lane and I heard and felt the noise again, but not as loud as the first. So I pulled on to the shoulder, slowed down to a craw and while still in gear the right-rear wheel locked up and I brought the car to a stop at mile marker 195. I got out and could see a skid mark on the pavement (see attachments) from the wheel lock up and only on the right side. I opened the rear deck lid and reach down to the right half shaft to check and see if it could have been a CV joint but it was free in that it did move slightly back and forth without resistance or slop. I checked the left half shaft for comparisons and it too felt the same/normal.

I called AAA and then Tino to let him know what happened. He did offer a tow truck but I let him know a AAA flat bed was on the way already. He said he would be there when I told him I would come with the car.

I got back in the car, put it in reverse hoping to unlock the wheel before the flat bed showed up and was successful. I then put it in 1st and was able to move about 15 feet and the right rear locked up again. I tried this again but this time when I put it in 1st, I kept the clutch in and let the car roll down the hill and it locked up once more in about 10 feet. And that was with the clutch pedal depressed.

While waiting for the tow truck, I looked in the engine bay for anything obvious and did not find anything out of sorts. I then looked underneath the engine and noticed a lot of either engine or gear oil on the engine/tranny cover that is on the engine oil sump side. I am fairly anal about my car and I do my own light maintenance to include engine oil and gear oil changes. I have been under this car a few times but I have never seen this accumulation of oil under it. I since have wondered a lot about that observation.

The car and I got back to FOS. It was off loaded backwards in neutral with no lockup and I explained to Tino what had happened in detail. He stated that it didn’t make since that if I had the clutch pedal in while in 1st gear rolling, why did it still locked up? I am not the smartest guy on the planet but, if the car was rolling and in 1st gear, wouldn’t it still make the internal shafts/gears turn inside the tranny?

He did make the promise that he would return the car to me “better condition than when it first came in” (9 months ago) at all cost. Also, I appreciate the ride home with Towne Car. Believe it or not, that was the most pleasant part of my day!

A couple of thoughts:
1. Could it be since the car sat for so long, the gear box gaskets shrunk and caused the gear oil to leak and the gear box was low and starving for oil? And if so, why did it go unnoticed? If noticed, why didn’t someone check the gear oil level and even the engine oil level to be safe? I know that if I noticed a leak, I would investigate.
2. Could it be since the car sat for so long, it caused the e-brake shoe/laminate to peel off inside the rear brake drum and bind up the hub? I actually hope this is the issue for all of our sakes.
3. I know Tino explained this but, why were 63 miles on the car since it was transported up there last year?
4. Why did the car get flat bedded back front the body shop on Thursday? Just curious.

Please contact me as soon as you can. I would like to know what is wrong and how soon I can expect to wait.

Joe Duch

 

It's my experience that unless you are dealing with an extremely intelligent, well-educated person, that having more than one action item in an email or letter just gets all but one thing ignored...the one thing will be whatever the recipient *wants* to hear or work on at the time.

 

Sorry to hear about your trouble.

 

I am really sorry to hear about your car. I too had saved up every penny when I was in the "Sandbox" so that I could buy the car of my dreams. But to have a dealership take 9 months to fix a car?? It doesn't sound right to me. Better hold Tino to his words! Better yet, hold a protest in front of the dealership, call the local papers and tell them how a military vet got hosed by FOS. See how fast FOS fixes your car for you!

I also had problems with USAA when my Bimmer was attacked by hail stones. But USAA has been good to me over the years so I stayed with them.

 

Thanks for the encouragement and glad to see another Vet with a Ferrari!

Yeah, USAA has always been good to me in the past (since 1980) and I will probably chalk this up as a one off experience.

I have to say that in my frustration of missing out on what would have been a great Labor day weekend, I finally vented by sending my email to FOS and posting it here last night. I did feel a lot better afterwards by getting it off my chest. And it felt strange to have to do that because it rare for me to vent that way. I guess they push me too far against the wall. I wonder if they realized it?

I have been more than patient with them and have given them the benefit of the doubt probably way too many times. Especially with the amount of excuses they gave to justified the delays after the wheels got back from Speedline in March.

Well, the ball is fully in their court and I hope for the very last time they get it right.

 

Really sorry to hear about your troubles. Situations like this will test the patience of anybody.

I don't know if I would have sent that e-mail without knowing what was wrong with the car first. It sounds a little threatening to me. Almost like you are blaming them for the breakdown and you expect them to fix it at their cost no matter what.

Calm down and try to look at the situation rationally. You've been in the military so you should understand the importance of getting all the information necessary before taking action. Diagnose the problem first, then figure out what part (if any) FoS played in it. It may just turn out to be a bad coincidence that they had nothing to do with.

 

I appreciate your comments and believe me, I think I have shown a lot of patience up to this point. In fact, I may have enabled them because of my generous amount of patience. In that case, I can hold myself to blame as well.

Do not forget or maybe you might have missed it (I did get long-winded originally and I apologies for that). They got the wheels back at the end of March. It took them 5 months to R&R the lower control arm, realign it again and paint the fender correctly. Does that sound reasonable to have taken that long to complete those 3 items?

Hey, I am not venting on you so please do not take it that way. I just want to know if that is reasonable and if anyone else here has experienced this kind of drawn-out repair to their Ferrari at any shop, then maybe I am inpatient. I do most of the work on my car myself to include rebuilding the clutch (1 weekend), R&R the complete intake/FI system (2 weekends) and with the resources FOS has, I would expect a lot more service and in a shorter amount of time.
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9 Months is absurd. You should be able to rebuild the entire engine, tranny, dif and all other related items in that time frame and thats doing the work yourself. Sounds like you are getting hosed. I'd be getting after Teno big time. BTW what exhaust is that?