550s Below $100k?

To put this into perspective to other brands I think all mass produced cars depreciate and of course bottom out at some point in time. Luckily Ferrari's in general bottom out at higher price levels while f.e. a Mercedes will bottom out a much lower percentage of the original value. Nothing new here.
Over here in Europe you can now see the TR hitting price levels of 40K euro's. (US$ 54K) Which seems to be (or close to) the bottom since TR prices are relatively stable recently.
Early 550's with reasonable milage and complete service history are now between 65K to 85K euro (US$90K - US$115K) High mileage cars are already approaching the 50K euro (US$ 68K) barrier. But it seems like the bottom is still not in sight, I recently discussed the 550's price curve with some friends and general consensus was that the 550 will probably follow a similar curve to that of other mass produced F’s like the TR / 348 etc… front or mid-engined is not really making any difference here IMHO.

 

In regard to the 456 auto trans "urban legend"...I understand it's a $50K+ item if it fails.

Does that mean it's unrebuildable and must be replaced, or is that just the cost of a rebuild?

The idea itself is enough to scare anyone away.

 

$52k for an entirely new unit: http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partsListing.asp?M=1&Mo=568&A=1&B=31277&S=&ID4=1295949

It can obviously be rebuilt for less.

 

With the sub-prime crisis...we'll see $55k 550's at auctions in the next 18 months (my prediction). Guys who were blowing coin while flippin' homes are going to be dumping their "pay to play" toys.

 

I hope you're right. If they get that low, I'll buy 2 more and hold them.

Barring a total economic collapse (which is possible when Bush leaves office), a clean, no-story 550 will always fetch $80k. Just my opinion.

What I have not seen repeated enough in this thread is that the regular maintenance on a 550 is pennies compared to other V12s. I did my 15K major last month for $2900. What's the 15k major run in a 512TR... $8k, 10k, 12k? That's the reason that the Testarossas have dropped. Cost of ownership directly impacts the demand of a vehicle in the marketplace.

I still say the 550 is most comparable to the 512BBi, and expect to see a similar historical value.

 

Yup, but we're at a freaky point in time. The core economy is good (low unemployment, high corporate profits, high productivity) while on the other hand the easy money from corporate mergers and house-flipping is gone...and quite a few lenders are in trouble (140 mortgage lenders alone have gone tits up this year).

Likewise, we're in that beginning transition phase to hybrids, diesels (think: Audi winning Le Mans), electrics (the new Tesla is amazing), etc.

So here are some cool cars like the V-12 front engine Ferraris and flat-12 mid-engine Ferraris...yet where are they going?

TR service costs *are* high, and every TR save the last mid-90's 512M's will break its differential if you put any miles on it. That just bites.

I'd like to pick up a 456 because it's got 4 seats (I've got 2 kids and a wife who wants to drive automatics), but a new auto transmission on that car sets you back $52,000 (for 1 part!) at Eurospares. That's crazy considering the value of that car compared to replacing 1 part. Hurt your 456 tranny and you've got yourself nothing more than a track or parts car remaining.

The 550's are beautiful. The one common "major" problem on them is the cooling hoses (3 of them) under the intake plenum, but that's just a $3k repair if you pay someone to do it for you (and I have the option of doing that myself because I can turn a wrench).

...but if those 550 prices keep plummeting, then like you said, time to pick up a 550 (or two!).

No need to rush to buy them yet, though. I'd like to see 6 months of upticks (or at least stability) in prices on 550's before considering that purchase seriously.

 

Rebuild cost...anyone know?

I never was infected with the TR-lust virus, so no prob there. Upfront V12 or walk.

Agree, the 550/575 is a car to get passionate about. Out of the mid-90's to '04 or so Ferrari production lineup, it most has future classic written all over it, at least to my eye. Yes, time to keep a careful eye on the market and be ready.

However, after last night's review of all suitable late-model Ferraris with my wife, she doesn't like any of them, sees them as a poor allocation of finances, and has conceded that another Vintage 12 is the only way to go, even if it's just a pleasure driver/event car. We make very big decisions together, 50/50, and that's that.

Three cooling hoses...I took my 330 2+2 apart and put it back together twice, could probably handle three cooling hoses.

 

stories of 512tr maintenance being expensive are not always true....i really cant figure out where these horror stories come from. its either that dealers have been just hosing all the owners for years, or owners just baby the cars and use them insufficiently to keep it all working.

i bought my '92 512tr in 2000, with 10k miles on the clock. i did nothing but drive it and change the oil and filters yearly for 6 years. (not counting the damage it incurred along the way with 2 attempted thefts). at 22k miles and 14 years total age, i changed the belts (they came out perfect btw), and while they were in there i had them change the clutch (at abt 30% left). they did all the other normal 25k mile service stuff too. the cost was $6k. the yearly oil and filter changes and other small issues were around $300/yr. so total maintenance costs for my car have been $1.1k/yr for 7 years and 12k miles, or about 65cts/mile. frankly i dont think you would get that much better on a non-exotic, let alone an automotive icon of the 20th century. and the pleasure it has brought to me over the years was worth that and more. AND for the added kicker, i have not lost any money on the car ! admittedly i bought cheaply from a dealer friend, but even if we disregard that discount, i am at the very least breakeven on the car's value 7 years later !

 

Here's the numbers on my 1998 550:

Sold new for $215k. 1st owner drove it 8k miles and sold for $205k.

2nd owner drove it 800 miles and sold it to me in 2003 for $115k (ouch).

Car currently has 26k miles on it, and I have been told by FOH that a quick sale price is $85k.

Four years ago, I had the plenum hose fixed and the 30k belt service done for about $10k.

Other than that, no major repairs. Just bs stuff like tires, brake pads, etc.

Yes, it is currently in the shop. Turns out that FOH only replaced one of the three plenum hoses.

So, if I sold it today for $85, which I'm not, my smile per mile charge would be about $3/mile.

*****

Would I buy this car again for $85?

In a heartbeat.

A Maranello is a front-engined torque slut that you can drive drive 500+ miles and the car (and you) still wants to keep on going. (Ask me how I know.) Even better, here in Texas, the A/C will freeze your nuts off.

However, it is not a track car. It is too heavy, and the motor is w-a-y better than the brakes.

Nor are you going to impress dancers at the titty club. In fact, you probably will not impress anyone. (Cept the Highway Patrol. They are easy to impress.)

The interior is nuthin to get excited about. It's nice. But Maser does a much better job. Hell, Honda does a better job.

Nah, Maranellos are born to be driven. If you don't get a smile when you put your right foot into that bottomless pit of torque, there just ain't much hope for ya. And shifting? Making a power shift from 2nd to 3rd without rocking the boat takes a lot of practice. But boy-oh-boy, it is sure is fun when you nail it.

$55k? I don't think so. Sure there may be a story car that goes to some fool for that kind of money. (Because Ferrari doesn't do any signficant pre-production quality control, it makes some lemons.) But a good car with a known service history by reputable shops, I just don't see it. Remember at $85k, a Maranello is at 40% of sticker.

Will the car go up in value? Maybe in 15 to 20 years, if ever. The reality that no one wants to admit is that modern Ferraris are just used cars. The chances of Maranellos ever selling for $150+ are just about nil.

So, if you like it, buy one and drive the living crap out of it. Why the hell not?

Dale

 

I'm happy your experience has been so positive but I'll bet you're alluding to normal maintenance.

Real life owners have posted other results on FChat when it comes to failures of the drive-line. While this is not a fluid/belts/tune-up type of maintenance it is something that owners will have to pay for and is so well known by buyers that they need to factor it into their purchase plans.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132047&highlight=$

I am not aware of any of these type of catastrophic safety or financial issues on the 550.

 

a friend claims folks compliment him on the nice "supra"

 

Sounds like something Papa B would say about his (former) 550.

 

I'm happy your experience has been so positive but I'll bet you're alluding to normal maintenance.

Real life owners have posted other results on FChat when it comes to failures of the drive-line. While this is not a fluid/belts/tune-up type of maintenance it is something that owners will have to pay for and is so well known by buyers that they need to factor it into their purchase plans.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132047

I am not aware of any of these type of catastrophic safety or financial issues on the 550.

 

I agree, this home-loan situation could blow a lot of the usual predictions out of the water. The number of used car shoppers looking for a Ferrari touring car with $10K service bills isn't getting larger.

The 550 is a magificent car, but the average joe probably thinks mid-engined Ferraris are more race-like, and doesn't give a flip that that Ferrari road cars were all front-engined in the 1960s.

As others have said, buy it because you like it and want to enjoy it for the long haul.

 

Attention wise, my car get much more attention than I would like.

I thought that with a black Ferrari, I would just blend in, I think the shields give it away quickly.

Kids are always pointing and except for one instance it has all been positive.

I would say the a 550 gets an extream amount of anttention in certain colors, with shields of course.

John

 

I know guys who could forge the whole thing from raw materials for that price.

 

I highly doubt there were that many people out there buying 550s with subprime home equity loans, so I don't think that will make much of a difference in prices. If that were to be believed, I'd guess the 308 market would tank first, and there don't seem to be many signs of that happening. After all, the maintenance/purchase cost equation on a 308 or Mondial is much worse than a 550.

And, as for the 456 automatic transmission, one reason there are few resources to rebuild one is that they almost never fail! From everything I have read and heard, that automatic is very, very reliable.

Personally, I prefer the 456 to the 550, but both are wonderful machines. I think 550 prices will continue to drift slowly down, but I also don't see the price of a *good* 550 going below $75-80k. So buying one, even at $100k, is not a bad deal.

 

I think you have not driven one....


Onno

 

I find it hard to believe that a 550 wouldn't get attention.

When I first bought the 330, I thought the same thing...as a lowend vintage 2+2 in a conservative color, it would just blend in, maybe get an occasional glance, kind of like an old Chevy Monte Carlo in good shape.

Totally and completely wrong. Yes, an F40 or 275 GTB would get lots more attention, but I was always amazed at the amount the old 4-headlighter got.

 

I have been writing about economic issues on this board for months now. The subprime issue is very real. I know a guy that bought a Porsche with a home equity loan. I know another guy who bought a BMW 650 convertible with the proceeds he had after selling one of his rental houses. The guy that bought the Porsche has left town and had 4 homes foreclosed. The guy withthe BMW 650 recently borrowed against it to keep a few of his investment properties afloat. It is not a good idea to buy a Ferrari with debt, but I know a lot of people do that.

People who understand this issue know that it is not an issue of subprime lenders per se, but rather an indicator of overall market liquidity. In an earlier post, I called the subprime meltdown a worldwide margin call. (I also posted Jim Cramer's rant against the FED.)

Without mincing words, we are in for a tough time, folks. That idiot Ahmadinejad keeps enriching Uranium. The US may very lack the will to act, but do you honestly think Israel will allow Iran to have "the bomb?!?" Think about economic woes that follow that--along with $6.00 a gallon gas. (At $6.00 a gallon, a hell of a lot of sports cars go on the market.) What happens if the subprime crisis causes someone like Morgan Stanley to recalculate last quarter's earnings; what happens if we have another Katrina; what happens if Hillary Clinton continues to strengthen in the polls; what happens if the power grid in New York has a hiccup; what happens if China decides to dump some of our treasuries; what happens if Chavez or Putin nationalize some of the private oil rigs in their countries; I could go on and on.

The point is this . . . there is no margin of error, and I have no faith in politicians to micro manage the process. Bernake, is a "maybe" at best.

Does anyone remember Tom Monaghan paying $15 million for a Bugatti Royale? How about $15 million for a 1962 GTO which a Japanese investor paid? I can remember $145K (in 1989) for a 328 GTS. Prices go up and prices go down. It is time for them to cycle down.

The result is that prices, which are highly inflated on production cars (read that again, production cars, not specialty cars), are due for a correction.

I have been thinking about trading up from a Barchetta to a Superamerica, but the cars I like are being priced in the 300s, which I think the real market price of the Superamerica is, I think, below 300. Worse still, my Barchetta is probably worth only about $180K. Faced with the tradeoff between a low 300 Superamerica and a low 300 Murcielago Roadster, I am taking a hard look at the Lambo.

I will probably go for the Superamerica and keep the Barchetta, but I am actually doing a lot of thinking. A year ago, I would not have worried about $325K for a Superamerica.

 

Please confine your thoughts to the business and investment section. There is a reason why Rob split everything up.

It would be nice to keep these areas focused on car talk.

Dale

 

Nice car. Maranellos look good in black. If it wasn't for the paint chips and the heat, I'd go with black in a heartbeat.

Along this same line, I don't think Maranellos look good in either red or yellow. There is just too much sheet metal for the really bright colors.

Just FYI, mine is silver/burgundy.

Dale

 

Dale.

The entire thread is about prices and economics as it relates to 550s. Almost by default there's gonna be some spill over of economic and business related stuff in a thread like this.

Don't see where the problem really is here, but if you must, flail away.

Dave

 

Frankly, and this is just from a sample size of one, I find all this sub prime (or insert whatever media created event you deem appropriate) hysteria boring. The ONLY reason I'm still hanging around is to talk about cars and Ferraris. If I want to know more about the "subprime" crisis, I go to the WSJ, not F-Chat.

The only reason I said anything was that I found almost nothing in that post that has to do with 550s or cars at all. So if someone is gonna to rant about whatever and not cars, why not take it to the whatever section?

Dale

 

now THAT'S funny!!!!