Do you think McLaren would still be winning without the documents?

Agreed.

Further question - do you think Ferrari would still be losing if Nigel hadn't given them away? It's not like Stepney stole their reliability, and THAT has been Ferrari's problem this year - McLaren has been 100% reliable for both cars all season, and they didn't get the reliability from the documents.

 

why won't they be winning? they're proven winners after all. but then again, it's kinda questionable....i mean, they didn't win a single race last season, and they're leading both the WCC and WDC now. oh well...

 

Depends. If Mclaren used Ferrari's tire data to help them adapt their chassis to the Bridgestone tires, no I don't think they would be winning. It's almost like a freaking miracle that Mclaren all of a sudden have so much mechanical grip, when last year the Mclaren car was known for being "kind" to it's tires.

 

Well thats assuming they did use the info!!! I think they would still be winning but not by as much..
As regards the tyre issue I would hope this was a level playing field for all the teams..

 

Hi guys.I dont post very often as you might have guessed but i felt the need to say a few words.
Is Mclaren guilty of using the stolen information from Ferrari?We can't be sure.
But there is one thing we are sure about.Mclaren tried to hide that their chief designer had Ferrari's documents at his hands.If ferrari wasn't tipped off by that bookshop owner we may have never learned the truth.
What i am trying to say is that even if Mclaren didn't use the information,they have lost their credibility by trying to supress the facts.
It's really a shame because i can't believe that their performance is 100% their own doing and i think many people feel the same way.
And one last observation about whether or not the driver's should be punished.
I think that their championship points should be nulled if Mclaren is found guilty of using ferrari data.It's not entirely their fault(even though from a moral point of view it's not that great to know your team is cheating and still have a lust to win the championship,Alonso speaking),but if they drove a car that it's performance was enhanced by stealing, i dont find it fair for the other teams and drivers.

 

They didn't steal anything...the Ferrari engineer stole them.

enhanced performance from receiving stolen information... okay. And we know that every team is out to try and learn every other teams secrets. So McLaren went too far...yes

But Team Ferrari is the source of the thief

 

lol..no worries mate

 

Yes, without a doubt.
Based on their finnishing record.

PS. The tire/suspension set up info may be more important than any other technical info that MAY have been gathered.
If you can get the tires to work the rest is downhill.

Remember; all teams were to start with a clean spec tire slate this year. Including Ferrari.

 

The documents seem to me to be the only logical link between they 2006 suckage and their 2007 success. The only other one is Fernando Alonso, can he really be THAT good?

The lack of the documents for Renault looks like a good reason for their 2007 suckage, when switching from Michellin to Bridgestone. They also lack Fernando.

Maybe he is that good.

 

...go ask Briattore what he thinks and you´ll get the Idea...only knowing weight balance, gas tank position, or general race strategy will make his day...

We will be the same team we have been all year, NO DOUBT! with the silly mistakes and reliability issues and even with mistakes and unconsistent but fast drivers... BUT WE WILL BE LEADING EASILY, and BMW will be a solid second...look at Renault, last year they had a car that was every bit as fast as ours...and this year they fight with the midfield like there is no tomorrow...thanks to the tire change...

thinking that McLaren finishing 5th in the WCC-and not winning a thing since 1999!- and then being first and almost uncatchable this year is just plain silly, when you have the other top player RENAULT drowning in the mud of honest competition...

NEW TIRE FOR EVERY ONE?...sure thing, only differece is that Ferrari has developed the tires along with bridgestone for 10YEARS!!!!...Even I will be intersted in seeing a pattern, a development line, a chassis design trend that produces champion cars one after the other for 5 consecutive years...taking advantage of a race car is A LOT MORE WORK than just adding and substarcting forces, you need to know and feel, and forsee...is tire info is what caused this McLiaren breakthrough? we dont know for sure yet...

but I dont believe such a giant leap...if Renaults were up there, I could see HOW AND WHY they will have the potential...but McLiaren?...I can only see the WHY

Sorry mate, is a no-no-no

 

BMW has had a similar improvement in performance and to the best of my knowledge, they didn't have the Ferrari documents.

No one seems to recall that the season before McLaren won 10 GPs. It seems to me the issue is not that McLaren found speed in 2007, it is that they had an abysmal year in 2006. McLaren has always been among the fastest teams, 2007 should be no surprise.

What people also seem to forget is that this year's Bridgestone is a much, much different tire than last year's. Having a spec tire in a series significantly alters the engineering that goes into tire development than when the company has to compete with a rival. This has been discussed numerous times in F1 circles, most recently when Pirelli dropped out and Goodyear became the spec tire.

 

You're kidding, right?

McLaren won 10 races the year before. Do you think they suddenly got stupid overnight and forgot how to design a winning race car?

Ferrari sucked wind in 2005, are you as surprised at their performance in 2006? Do you think that top teams do not have an off-season occasionally and then sort out their problems in time for next year?

 

Um...ahem...McLaren won two WDC and two WCC on Bridgestones. McLaren was co-developer of those tires alongside Ferrari for many years.

 

...maybe I´m all paranoid right now given that the CHIEF DESIGNER at MCLIAREN had 750 secret pages of SECRET INFO on the FERRARI RACE CAR...

other than that I will just STILL believe them to be a MIGHTY and WORTHY adversary...

But not anymore...

 

Perhaps. They sure did adapt quickly to those Bridgestones...

 

BMWs' performance improvements are happening as the year progresses. This is what one would expect of a team that has to addapt to a new tire. Infact the side by side comparisons of the McCheater team and the BMW team highlights the difference between a development stratagy and a cheating one. You also tell us that this years spec tire is much much different than last years tire while in another post insinuate that McCheater know the bridgestones because they helped develop them years ago. WOW! And yes Ferrari sucked wind in 2005....this is what happens when you make a radical change in tire rules. Michelins rubber was much better suited to going the distance in a one tire per race rule. Alonshole bennefited from that bigtime.

 

+1...see what I mean, please raise your hand those that suspect RENAULT is just sandbagging?...they only thing I´ve heard about Flavio is using Viagra to keep up with his ever younger and prettier paddock girls...I´m kool with that!

NOBODY questions WHY RENAULTS are screwed big time?...BMW progress is LOGICAL, BUILT, SUFFERED, and in deed they are progressing to a point that if we do ANYTHING WRONG, they bit us...

fair enough

 

No, they were fast right out of the block. It doesn't take a whole lot to look back over the season's results. Heidfeld has been best of the rest from the first race of the season.

By the way...every team in F1 is adapting to a new tire this year. This is the first year of a spec tire. Perhaps you should do a cursory review of discussions on tire development whenever a series moves to a spec tire. This year's Bridgestone is very different from last year's.

 

McLaren knows something how to take the most out of harder controlled tires. Remember 2005 ?

 

I had a discussion with YellowbirdRS about mechanical grip and Why we at Ferrari have those mechanical grip problems on those rather small circuits...struggling is everybodys right...

I even got to say that maybe WE aint that good to DESIGN AND DEVELOP the SUSPENSION around a NEW SPEC tire given we had been too much time on the same variable...and maybe MCLIAREN was BETTER at that because they have had 3 tire changes in 10 years...they had learned how to ADAPT.

I thought that back in INDY.

...NOW I dont.

...not after their chief designer had that data for god knows how long.

 

These are the points so far this season for the top 4 teams....Do you not see whats happening here?

01 McLAREN 14 18 12 14 18 12 18 8 14 10 -- 10 18 -- -- -- -- 166
02 FERRARI 13 10 16 10 7 4 11 18 14 8 8 18 6 -- -- -- -- 143
03 BMW SAUBER 5 5 8 5 7 8 1 9 8 5 10 6 9 -- -- -- -- 86
04 RENAULT 4 4 1 2 5 5 4 3 3 1 1 3 2 -- -- -- -- 38

 

I think problem is - historically Ferrari designed suspension for MS - to let him use the maximum out of multiple stints on super soft Bridgestones.

 

Even with the reliability issues we have had this year, we would be the champs if that data wouldn't have fallen into the wrong hands.. BMW would be the only scare and at this point in the season, it would have been too late!