From The Times September 12, 2007 McLaren facing large dossier of new evidence in spying scandal Edward Gorman, Motor Racing Correspondent . The case against Lewis Hamiltons Formula One team, McLaren Mercedes, over allegations that they have cheated this season by using secret technical information stolen from Ferrari consists of a large body of new evidence running to 166 pages in length, The Times has learnt. As McLaren prepare for their appearance before the FIAs World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) in Paris tomorrow, it has also become clear that the apparent amnesty offered to McLarens drivers in return for their cooperation in the FIAs investigation may not save them from having points docked as part of the teams punishment. The dossier of new evidence collected by the FIA is thought to centre not just on e-mail traffic between the McLaren test driver, Pedro De La Rosa, and Hamiltons teammate, Fernando Alonso, but also on details of the phone and text message traffic between McLarens suspended chief designer, Mike Coughlan, and the former Ferrari chief mechanic, Nigel Stepney, supplied to the FIA by the authorities in Italy. Although the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts, the FIA is thought to be able to demonstrate how the rate of calls and messages between Stepney and Coughlan allegedly matches e-mail traffic between Alonso and De La Rosa. The implication being that if the drivers needed a detail checked, they then referred the matter to Coughlan, who passed on queries to Stepney. Related Links Hamilton driven to despair by scandal McLaren shows strength of character Multimedia Ed Gorman's F1 weblog The scandal began in early July when Ferrari discovered by chance that Stepney had supplied Coughlan with a 780-page blueprint of Ferraris present race car and their research and track operations, an allegation Stepney denies. The information at the heart of the new evidence, however, predates the transfer of the dossier between Stepney and Coughlan in late April and is thought to centre on incidents in March. It is understood that all 26 members of the WMSC received a copy of the new evidence last Friday, the same day that McLaren were given their own copy of the case against themselves. McLaren will face questioning from WMSC members at the hearing, where Ferrari will also be able to make their own submission before the Council considers its verdict and any sanction should McLaren be found guilty. McLaren are expected to present a robust defence and will argue that the e-mail traffic was limited in scope and does not show that Ferrari information was used on their race cars. The view among sources close to the team is that the drivers have done nothing wrong and the case linking the e-mails with the phone calls between Coughlan and Stepney is tenuous. As one source put it: In terms of the drivers, they havent done anything wrong and certainly not done anything that would amount to a serious breach of the regulations. He described the whole situation as a mess and said it would be very difficult for the FIA to prove its case. I have no idea how they are going to demonstrate how McLaren used the information, the source said. Another element of McLarens defence is thought to be the proposition that if they are found guilty, then rival teams such as Renault should also be punished for reasons McLaren have not specified. McLarens lawyers have put this point to the FIA, but the organisation has made clear that it considers that irrelevant to its case against McLaren. During the Italian Grand Prix at Monza last weekend, the FIA published a letter sent by its president, Max Mosley, to all three McLaren drivers requesting that they hand over information they may have had concerning the use of Ferrari information. The letter included the following: I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One regulations. This was taken, by some, to mean that both Hamilton and Alonso would not have championship points removed should McLaren be found to have cheated and the punishment would centre on constructors points and a fine. However, The Timesunderstands that this is not the case and that the FIA regards the WMSC as having a free hand when it comes to deciding on any sanctions.
The whole season is F**ed. I don't want Kimi winning the title because of a court ruling. I also don't want McLaren winning due to the indescretions of Coughlan etc. (Regardless of whether Ron Dennis knew what was going on - and I don't believe he did) I really don't what kind of outcome is going to be beneficial here. Most people won't like this opinion, but McLaren overall is good for F1 - excluding them from both Champsionships would feel like the Indy 2005 race all over again.............(And I'm a huge Ferrari supporter) This whole mess started by letting Michelin into the sport years ago. The tire war was did nothing to make the racing more competitive. It resulted in complex rules (the outer tread wearing off mess); stupid rules (one set of tires lasting an entire race); and now with Ferrari having all the previous recent Bridgestone data, all the heavyweights were left to catch up for 2007. Which is where are today. I'm done venting. Kevin S. Orchard Park, NY
The whole season is F**ed. I couldn't agree more! Any outcome that either strips McLaren of the title or hands it to SF is undesirable. Its almost as if they should just scrap the season; its such an aberration.
I'm interested to see what the evidence is. I wouldn't be surprised if it's pretty weak though (as weak as what has been leaked so far).
The good news are the 166 pages. That's a lot of material. The bad news is, that allegedly the key link between the Stepney-Coughlan conversations and the de la Rosa-Alonso emails is rather weak: From the newspaper reports it sounds more like de la Rosa was discussing questions regarding Ferrari's setup with Alonso (nothing wrong with that) and then de la Rosa passed the question on to Coughlan who then asked Stepney. Apparently the entire chain with Q&A doesn't exist, but is only there as circumstantial evidence due to increased email/cell phone activity. If that is all there is, then the case is on thin ice.
Your post is right on target. A true competitor wants to win on the field of competition--not in court. It is no good to have someone else stand on the podium and then you get the trophy a few weeks later, by mail or something. The whole problem is that if McM did gain an advantage, then the advantage is relevant and they should be stripped. If they did not gain an advantage, then why all the drama? Let's go back to the cars on opening day; scrap all points and have a shootout until year's end. Better still, put all 4 drivers in the same car and see who's the best.
Actually a lot of people know already what's in there: The documents have been sent to all the parties and all the "jury" members last Friday. That's why we see all these "leaks" in the newspapers.
But some in here have been saying all along that these media reports and or leaks are phony. One member even told me that the email stuff is all made up
The Italian reporter who made up some conversations in the Gazetta dello Sport retracted them later and acknowledged that they were made up. However it could be, that they were following the same pattern of what he saw in the 166 page document (assuming somebody gave him access). So it is quite possible, that those phony emails could be quite real in the spirit of the actual thing. But even then the emails by themselves don't proove anything if there isn't a direct link to Stepney and actual Ferrari data. Any team can discuss other team's setups.
Well seeing that Ferrari is actually going to be able to represent themselves this time, then they may be able to fill in some gaps. If there are any.
Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock... Do you think Ron has been offered his choice of a last meal, a cigarette, or even a blindold? Execution at Sunrise. Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock... Tic... Tock...
I have been thinking about this more and more. I think one must ask themselves whether the McLaren is faster this year, as a result of the Ferrari data. Forget Ron Dennis and the fact that McLaren is leading the WDC and WCC - just ask whether the McLaren is faster than it would be if they did not have the data. I tend to think it is not. If it is, can it be proven? I say the answer is no and no. Even if someone thinks the answer to the first part is yes, I think we can all agree that the 2nd is no because it cannot be proven. Clearly McLaren did something wrong by having the docs (even if it was just one employee). So what punishment should fit that crime? The three things the FIA can do is take away points, make them forfeit races or skip races, or fine them money. If the car had been faster based on the docs, then the connection to illegal wins would be clear, and the punishment would be clear. But since it did not make the car faster (provably) then I think it unfair to use their performance as the punishment. The same with banning from races. It deprives Lewis and Fernando unfairly. I think a fair punishment would be a monetary fine, IF it ends up being proven that they did more than they have been convicted of thus far. Now, if it comes out that they used the data to improve their car, they should be banned from all further races and all points removed that they scored thus-far this year.
LoL..u sound like a manager or something like that now. now, if Mac are found guilty, whats gonne happen to the drivers?
Convictions happen all the time on circumstantial evidence alone if there is enough of it. I believe there is lots of it here. I love my analogies and here is another one....If I come home from work earlier than usual and the mailman is leaving my house via the back door tucking in his shirt tail...I really dont have to see more do I...Sure she will deny it.....but you would rather wait to see if she pops one out in 9 months right?
Convictions happen all the time on circumstantial evidence alone if there is enough of it. I believe there is lots of it here. I love my analogies and here is another one....If I come home from work earlier than usual and the mailman is leaving my house via the back door tucking in his shirt tail...I really dont have to see more do I...Sure she will deny it.....but you would rather wait to see if she pops one out in 9 months right? lol Anyway when Ron Dennis gets up in about 2 hours he will notice that the pinstripes on his suit are a little wider and his tie a little tighter.
You're a fireman right? Let me ask you this... Cops show up one day at the firehouse and take a guy away for having a baggie of coke (the happy kind not the drinking kind) in his pocket. During the investigation, it becomes known that the chief and deputy knew he had a baggie of it but he had been on the payroll for 20 years and had served the firestation very well, so the chief just told him to get rid of it and dont bring it to work or get involved it anymore. Then the mayor finds out about it and goes nuts and is calling for the chief to be charged with intent to distribute. I think thats a pretty big leap of logic that someone on the payroll had something illicit, and the higher-ups knew about it, therefore it must have been used. That wouldnt pass muster in a kangaroo court in cuba. Going back to the analogy, if the mayor also wanted to charge the chief with endangerment for all the people who may have not had their fire put out as quickly as they otherwise would, because this guy was coked up and slowing things down - would that be reasonable? If someone could prove something - fine - but I still think that making the assumption the info was used is premature and unfair to McLaren. Paul Stoddart has come out in support of Ron and revealed some interesting info about some inner workings of F1 and about how Max Mosley is and how Ron Dennis is. Jackie Stewart has come out in support or Ron. David Coulthard (who doesnt like Ron!) has come out and said during his tenure they never tried to achieve an unfair advantage. I think anyone can see there is an anti-Ron component on this website that is amplified by the fact that they are whippin' Ferrari this year - but does anyone really think there is enough knowledge based on what we know today to boot McLaren from the WDC/WCC? I cant believe any reasonable person would think so. We will see when the "new evidence" comes out tomorrow, but if the info was not used on the car, then punishing the WCC/WDC points situation is IMO unfair. If the status of the championship - as it stands now - was not affected by the actions that took place, then the punishment imposed for those actions similarly should not affect the status of the championship. Let it be monetary or whatever else, but dont mess with the championship if the championship wasnt affected by the transgression.
