As I said this sort of stuff happens all the time ...

... and I'm really pissed that McLaren have been dragged through the coals about it (though they've won now anyway) but this link proves that all the teams do this all the time: http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070913174203.shtml

It is part of the sport and how technology advances. I also bet that Ferrari has as much information on the other teams as they all do ...

I am very surprised that Ferrari are happy with the result, as if they really wanted to use 'this' to win this year, it has failed.
Pete

 

Many have assumed that's what Stepney was referring to when he said "I know where all the bodies are buried."

It'll be interesting to see if he spills the beans or not.

 

Pete,

Without knowing what Renault or other teams including Ferrari did, it is hard to comment. But, I think there is a fine line between what acceptable cheating is. For example, if you as a team photograph a new wing design on the track, then go to your engineers to have it designed and tested in a wind tunnel and find it to helpful on the car, are you cheating if you use it?

On the other hand, if a disgruntled employee turns over the design and the wind tunnel data to your team who uses it as a starting point and maybe improve upon it, and use it for your car because it is helpful are you cheating?


I say no to the first, (it is "stolen" legally , but yes to the second, you should have reported the trade secret theft. So based on McLaren not reporting Stepheny right away they were guilty of cheating.

As to your other point, I am sure everyone including Ferrari would rather win on the track
--tony

 

+1

 

McL as a team, cheated, got over it .... see result, docked WCC, drivers saved due to immunity

this was not the normal 'take a photo in a public domain' situation, plain as day, they got caught .. boohoo

they can think themselves lucky they are still in the comp but they will be labeled forever as CHEATS no matter what anyone on this board thinks

you can do a million things right but people only remember the bad things, human nature

 

Doubt it - he is thoroughly discredited by Coughlan's statement.

 

In the end it's a very tenuous "arrangement" all round.

Mclaren have been proven to have used the information of which they were in possession of. This is a fact which RD is overlooking.
That they used this info to model the Ferrari rear floor and bring it to the attention of the FAI begs the question "How else did they use it?"

The fact that the ruling on the Ferrari rear floor was sought and that the floor was subsequently found to not comply is where the matter hinges it would seem.

It certainly doesn't help that they computer modelled it and presented drawings to the FAI!

If ANY team had access to such information I am confident that you could model any number of components of an opponents car and present it in such a way as to be non conforming.

Notwithstanding the above, the FAI is a farce. I dont believe that either team is some sort of evil empire but RD has for too long gotten away with acting like his S... doesn't stink"

The English sycophantic press are equally as to blame for this in my opinion.

At least the Italian press will crucify Ferrari in Italy at times.

The FAI however are the root of all evil a vapid set of strictures that dont apply even handed justice .

I think the fine is ridiculous and over the top and wait to see what results further investigation brings.

For sure if they find Ferrari technology on the Mclaren car itself , the drivers will be disqualified as well.

At the end of the day we still dont know.

 

1) When an employee leaves a company as he/she received a better offer from another, the former employer has the opportunity to make sure no company IP was taken unlawfully by their former employee. The checkout process can range from forwarding address for the final paycheck to turning in his/her IDs to even have company security check items being taken out of the office etc. In the case of F1, teams can entice and hire away whoever they want, legally. If McLaren had hired Stepney away from Ferrari at the end of 2006, you can be sure that he would not have in his possession of the 780 pages of 2007 Ferrari IP, let along the ability to pass it to anybody, and we will certainly not be sitting here talking about any of this. However, this was not the case, Stepney was still a Ferrari employee, a disgruntled one yes, but still on Ferrari payrol at the time, which makes this situation not only extremly different as oppose to when one team hires someone away from another team, but more importantly, highly illegal.

2) Yes, engineers from different teams talk to each other all the time, but they don't give out 780 pages of confidential, official team docuements to one another over coffee or lunch just for the heck of it. They also don't answer detailed questions when asked nor do they tell or offer one another top secrets to their cars. Coughlan knew exactly what was being passed on to him from Stepney, he is not a 3 year old nor is he stupid, he is an engineer and McLaren chief designer at that, he knew the risks involved and he has enough sense of judgement within him to know right from wrong.

 

+1 RD still blind. His ego prevented this being handled as he said it WAS. Agree on the press handling in UK and Italy. I see that here in Europe.

 

Anthony,

A former employee of McLaren took a CD with him to Renault. These designs on that CD are now used by Renault in their current car!!!!!!!! ... is this not worse than what McLaren have done?

We are happily ignoring it because the Renault is slow ... but if it was winning it would be very relevant. Just like if the Ferraris were winning the whole McLarengate issue would never even have made it to the FIA .

Also both you and I have no idea how many documents flow between teams over coffee ... I actually believe it happens all the time.
Pete

 

and lo and behold BUT McL are accusing Renault of cheating and taking them to the FIA

gee, that can't be good for the sport .......


you've got to get over this McLaren/kiwi connection mate, McLaren are no more kiwi than Brabham was Aussie when Berine had it, Ronzo never raced, he was a spannerman that was in the right place at the right time with the right mates, scruples of a rattlesnake, miserable git

McL cheated , proved, end of story .... no WCC points and a $100M fine

 

Pete,

IMO, they are two very different things. You had posted here at least once before yourself on this very topic, and I believe the example you cited were along the lines of: Had you chose to leave your current job and move to another, how does one differentiates what is company IP and what is yours? Yes, the line can be very difficult to determent in such case. However, had you started to hand over confidential information about your current work place to your closest competitor TODAY, while still holding a position in your current job and under company payroll, what and how much trouble do you think you will be in if you were caught? You are now a spy and a traitor to your current employer. Ferrari-McLaren situation is entirely different when compared to the allegiate McLaren-Renault situation, as Stepney was still a Ferrari employee at the time, NOT an McLaren employee. He was essentially "ACTING" as a spy for McLaren while betraying his employer, Ferrari, of the time. And from the looks of it, McLaren's own driver and test driver, came out and made officialy statements to FIA about what was going on and what was involved, so there is no doubt that there was certainly a transfer of confidential information, from Ferrari, that has been utilized by McLaren. Again, while Stepney was still an employee at Ferrari and not McLaren or just a free-agent engineer.

Now, onto the McLaren-Renault accusation, as of right now, we do not know what's on the CD that McLaren is accusing Renault of having, much the same with Ferrari-McLaren situation until much later on, and I am sure more and more information about this will come out as time goes on.

 

...any of you read the FIA official transcript?...

...that leaves no doubt THEY SCAPED EASYLY from this...Todt was right, the deserved a bigger punishment...exclusion from the 2008 champ should be on the table...

Im mad and sad!

 

Link: http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

Pete,

This DOES NOT happen all the time.

Just did, thanks. You are right and I agree with you, IMO, McLaren got off light considering what had happened.

 

oh dear.
sorry but this is an uninformed and massively incorrect statement

 

ppl who actually work in the sport seem to disagree with you. (as do a lot of long term fans)

if thats the case then id love to hear your take on Toyota

 

+1
In a previous job I signed a document that If resigned from that company I could not go work for a competitor for one year.

As it turned out I did go work for a competitor after leaving that job. The first company chose not to take legal action against me because they were going through bancrupcy proccedings at the time. They could have done it by they didin't.

All of the first company's designs and IP were in my head and I kept them there for moral and ethical reasons

 

Ron has stated they are dropping the matter.

Also, it was Ron who sent all the emails to the FIA when he found out about them. So, basically the man sent the evidence to the FIA that convicted him. There's honor in that.

 

I doubt that's why he did it. He did it cause Fernando was threatening to do it for him unless he got out of his contract.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070914204448.shtml

 

Why do you think so?

In the past, what, 4 years we have McLaren getting Ferrari data, we have a Ferrari employee offering data to Toyota and Honda, we have Renault using McLaren data in their car design, we have Toyota having 2 employees convicted after stealing Ferrari data.

And thats just what we know about - in the last few years. Jackie Stewart says it goes on all the time, as do other F1 insiders.

I tend to think it does happen all the time. Not that it makes it OK, just that usually people don't get caught.

Riddle me this... which is worse (think about it in an unbiased manner)

1) Toyota hires 2 Ferrari engineers, who bring with them 10,000+ pages worth of Ferrari data, which Toyota then uses. Said engineers are caught and convicted in court of industrial espionage

2) Renault hires McLaren guy who brings with him engineering data on McLaren electrical and cooling system, which they then use in their car

3) McLaren engineer is offered Ferrari private data by Ferrari engineer. Little is known about actual usage, but we know the drivers asked their engineer to get weight data and tire gas-fill data from the Ferrari engineer.


Which of these is the worst? Which is the least bad? I would say the Toyota incident is the worst, clearly. I would say the Renault one is 2nd and McLaren the "lightest".

So riddle me this - why was the FIA involved only in the McLaren incident? If its the least bad of the three, why did it net the bigges punishment ever from the FIA to any team, ever?

Personally I think Max has a hard-on for Ron Dennis and this was his golden opportunity to stick it to the man.

I know you guys all hate Ron Dennis, but I think he's an honorable man and many have come out to say this - and they are people who command respect in the industry. Ron should have known, absolutely and its shameful that it didnt make it up to him. But does anyone think its really worse than the Toyota incident? Of course not. So I dont see how we can't be sort of reeling at the massive penalty dished out by the FIA.

 

If you wave crack in front of a crackhead, what do you think will happen? Seriously...

 

The difference is Ferrari was not fighting Toyota for the WDC WCC .They're fighting Mclaren now.

 

He would turn it into the FBI...CIA.....no, wait, FDA...ATF....s$$t he's on crack...can't remember all them acronyms...


but seriously, just because one waves engineering drawings in front of an engineer doesn't make him a scoundrel, unless he reaches and accepts it...then copies it, then shreds it, then burns it....then lies about it.....

 

Bingo.


That and the fact that Todt and Mosley are tight, and Mosley and Dennis are the opposite of tight - infact they hate each other

 

Your points are valid but that still doesn't mean that what they did was correct. Nothing justifies this.

They had Ferrari's war plans and they started beating them after Melbourne.. Like I said in an earlier thread I am surprised that Ferrari even mamaged to win some races this year despite what Mclaren knew. No wonder Todt was so pissed after the first meeting.