SPEED F1 Crew BASHING FERRARI!!

I agree, they were real jackasses. Up to that point I always enjoyed their banter. I could not believe that kept making jokes about hiring engineers from other teams would be illegal now. Or copying the Ferrari wheel cover would get a team thrown out of F1.

 

I honestly don't see how people can blame Ferrari for this. When they found out what was going on they reported it to the FIA and fired stepney and launched an investigation against him. McLaren tried to hide it at every turn and if I'm not mistaken Coughlan is still employed by McLaren ust suspended at the moment, not to mention their drivers were using the information to develop the car and gain race pace.

 

"Debrief" is pre-recorded. So, no, I'm guessing they didn't read the full report before filming or before practice.

I thought the ruling was a bit draconian too, until I read the details of the full findings.

Ron may well be feeling put out by the ruling. If Ferrari is exempt by "not knowing" about Steppney, then Ron must be wondering how he's not also blameless by "not knowing" about Coughlin ... and de la Rosa, and Alonso, and the simulator team, and and and ...

But the FIA report condemned McLaren for that management response of "I don't want to know" rather than investigating and stopping it.

Where the "clean house" penalties come in relate to the McLaren organization having the contract to build ECUs for all the teams next year. If McLaren doesn't actively prevent "back room" cheating, you could see half the field DNF every race with "electrical problems".

With all the focus on NAScrud at Speed TV, I don't imagine they've had time to digest the report, connect it to other F1 news, or think through the ramifications.


Besides, gratuitous Ferrari bashing plays to Fox's "mass market".

 

Hahahaha! SO true! <grin>

-Peter
www.peterkrause.net

 

haha....how 'Ferrari allowed'...

 

Their tune was different during qualifying, especially Varsha. Windsor appears to be pro McLaren.

 

They've really never seemed to be pro-Ferrari in the past, but bashing Ferrari is definitely not cool, probably 75% (at least) of F1 fans are Ferrari fans.

 

Maybe more than that in the US...

 

+1, I've yet to meet an American F1 fan that doesn't support Ferrari.

 

+1

I thought Varsha was right on target when he mentioned Alonso asking the engineers to test Ferrari setting in the simulator. Hopefully this will shut Windsor down about the mess. I would rather hear Windsor make those silly engine sounds

 

I met a good friend of mine when I noticed he was wearing a Wms/BMW hat and I struck up a conversation about F1. You don't see a lot of F1 apparel in the New Orleans area so I usually acknowledge the wearer. I actually found out about Fchat when I saw a kid wearing a Schumacher shirt. Turns out his dad owns a 308 and is active in the local Fcar community; this guy is a "great" friend, the BMW loving dude is just a "good" friend!

Also, use to work with a guy that is a McLaren lover. I owe him a beer after the Monza results; hopefully this weekend I'll draw even.

 

+1

I always said Windsor is an idiot.

 

How does that work, he used to work for Ferrari. Its like Luke Skywalker going to the Dark Side, it doesn't make sense.

 

Perhaps their seemingly anti-Ferrari positions are based on the fact the since ferrari was so dominant in F1 for so long that it is healthy for F1 fo have other strong teams. They perhaps see Ferrari as trying to win in court rather than on the racetrack and they feel this is not good for F1.

IMVHO Ferrari must protect their own interests. They have alot more at stake than the announcers do. The press is part of the problem and not really interested in a soluttion. Solutions don't sell papers. Controversy sell papers. Would anything have been done if Ferrari had not shown they were willing to go to the mat on this?

 

ROFL, according to Max Mosley the penalty is not harsh at all :

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40682

Not to mention the BS about Ferrari`s fault with the material. WTF ? Stepney was directly involved in building/running the car, of course he had acces to that dossier.

Ferrari`s fault ? ROTFLMAO

I don`t remember reading a stupidity bigger that this, when in the past some intelligence officer betrayed his country and run to the other side with some info,it was simply his fault and not the fault of the service he was working for.

 

well that makes sense, windsor is a brit

 

I actually saw a guy walking around campus last year sporting a Renault fleece jacket. Didn't get a chance to talk to him but hopefully he'll see me in my Ferrari jacket this fall.

 

Ferrari was right pursuing this! What the Speed team is missing here is it doesn't make any difference that Mclaren team said that they didn't use any of the info or as Hobbs said they know this stuff any way, the point is they had it in there hands and it doesn't belong to them. Their guilty, it's the same as if your wife walked into a motel room with another man and she decides that it's not right and walks out, still makes her guilty in your eyes, the intent was there. How do you know she did or she didn't. Same with Mclaren how do you know they benefited or not. How do you think Mclaren knew about the Ferrari floor, we now know it was because they had the info, funny because the Ferrari past tech and it was only after Mclaren spilled the beans did they ban it. For that matter the Mclaren front wing moves and no one seems to care, I'd say the wing is just as much of a gray area as that floor.

 

Yesterday I sent the following email to [email protected] (using the heading title above):

________________

1. On the F1 practice summary Round Table video that appeared on the SPEED website, David Hobbs made a passing comment that he thought it was "extraordinary" that Ron Dennis brought the issue (stolen Ferrari intellectual property) to the FIA "in the first place."

Information and commentary on other websites state that the reason Ron Dennis divulged the information to the FIA was ONLY BECAUSE FERNANDO ALONSO HAD THREATENED TO REVEAL THE INFORMATION HIMSELF (as part of his contract "blackmail" attempt) and that Ron Dennis knew that McLaren had already used or profited from parts of the stolen intellectual property so Ron Dennis divulged the information to the FIA in an attempt to outflank Fernando Alonso and to do damage control.

2. David Hobbs also asserted that there was no evidence that McLaren benefited from stolen Ferrari secrets. The FIA's full report includes evidence of HUNDREDS of contacts between Michael Coughlan (then McLaren's Chief Designer), former Ferrari employee Nigel Stepney, and McLaren drivers Alonso and de la Rosa.

The FIA's World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) states in paragraph 3.4 of its September 13, 2007 decision that:

"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received from Coughlan from Stepney."

As revealed in the WMSC decision, this information included specific information about Ferrari weight distribution, flexible wings and aero balance, tire ("tyre") gas, braking systems, and stopping strategies.

The email correspondence indicates that Alonso and de la Rosa USED this information for testing purposes -- de la Rosa later claimed that he in fact did not use that knowledge and/or did not perform the tests that he had originally said that he would, but the FIA did not believe that because the drivers continued to request Ferrari's confidential technical information and the information continued to be supplied to them.

Elsewhere, the decision notes that after discovering that confidential Ferrari information was being provided to McLaren, McLaren allegedly instituted a "firewall" to stop the flow, but even then, there was no evidence that McLaren had taken any further steps to stem the flow and to prevent further contacts between McLaren (Coughlan) and Stepney, and McLaren had failed to report continued contacts to either Ferrari or the FIA.

According to the FIA decision at paragraph 6.1:

"A firewall was set up at the instigation of Mr. Neale (Coughlan's superior at McLaren) to prevent further contacts from Stepney and Coughlan was directed to cease contact with Stepney. Within a matter of weeks thereafter, Coughlan again attempted to show some photographs to Mr. Neale which, according to Mr. Neale himself, because of the matter in which they were produced, suggested to M. Neale that they should not have been in Coughlan's possession. Rather than establish the facts and take appropriate action as his superior at McLaren, Mr. Neale advised Coughlan to destroy the photographs. Coming as soon as it did after McLaren had been required to install a firewall and had directed this same employee to cease contact with a known source of Ferrari confidential information, the WMSC notes that it is very unsatisfactory that no further action was taken to investigate this matter further and make appropriate disclosures to the FIA as regulator."

Thus, McLaren engaged in a cover-up.

At a minimum, McLaren deserves the punishment meted out to them. What escapes me is how the drivers have avoided giving up their points, and why McLaren is being allowed to continue to participate for the remainder of the season.

McLaren has clearly been outed as cheaters, Alonso and de la Rosa are cheaters, Mercedes owns a chunk of a team that cheats, and Vodafone is a major sponsor of a cheating team. That should go down well in the Mercedes and Vodafone boardrooms, shouldn't it?

MARK
Seattle, WA

________________

You can quibble about point 1 above, but the body of point 2 (and the WMSCS's pretty thorough summary of the underlying facts and reasons for the FIA decision) make it clear what McLaren, Stepney, Coughlan, de la Rosa, and Alonso did, and the benefits that McLaren received. The only reason the drivers escaped punishment was because of the grant of immunity given them by the FIA - de la Rosa's grant of immunity seems a little suspect to me because according to the WMSC decision, he denied through the September 13 meeting that a lot of the technical information he was given was ever used or tested, yet he admitted that he and Alonso continued to request confidentional Ferrari information and they continued to receive it. And despite his claims of innocence, Hamilton certainly also gained an advantage since certain knowledge had to have been shared with other McLaren team members (whether they expressly knew that it was stolen information) - such as Ferrari's pit strategy.

 

Very well said. Hopefully someone will take notice.

The sad fact behind all of this is that people just love to hate Ferrari. They're like the New York Yankees of racing. No matter how severe an infraction and how significant the evidence is, the anti-Scuderia crowd will spin it to lay the blame back in Ferrari's lap. Stepney was employed by Ferrari and therefore this whole thing is their fault. Amazing.

 

finally someone is making sense



I kid, I kid........we all know that Ferrari does it's cheating on the track, not off-track like McLaren.

 

they should have handed it back
BUT you cant say theyre guilty just because they had it - IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY A FERRARI TEAM MEMBER
this sort of thing happens all the time in F1 and it always has - (now that doesnt make it right. but it does make it more acceptable for McLaren to have and/or use the data)

a few yrs ago Toyota obtained the entire dossier on the current ferrari - 10,000+ pages !!!!!
they didnt get fined, they didnt lose points - makes you wonder if theres another agenda doesnt it

Renault this season have had 3 cds (or dvds) worth of data on the mclaren in their possession, taken by an ex employee when he left
they only gave it back when Briatore heard that McLaren were aware and were starting an investigation - even then they didnt give it all back at first

according to the ITV F1 team (which consists of ex F1 players) there is and always has been "unofficial" sharing of data between the teams and indeed they themselves often know various bits of technical information about most of the teams

its clear that certain members of staff at mclaren havent acted honourably
its equally clear that at least one member of staff at ferrari hasnt acted honourably
however its also just a clear that this sort of thing happens ALL the time in F1, and that none of the teams are blameless.
as such the court case and the resulting massive fine is i feel more political than anything else.

its not the same.
for an analogy to work it has to be comparable in all aspects - yours only covers one area.

well it wasnt because of the dossier

yes they were told about it.
but not via the dossier that is at the centre of this current situation.
(maybe it would be best if you did some research on the matter before commenting)

not exactly, when designing a car they have to conform to certain rules.
ferrari felt they were within the guidelines, the FIA on inspection it seems felt they werent.
incidentally it wasnt that the floor moved, it was the amount it moved
basically its down to interpretation of the rules and regulations - the rules/testing were changed to make things clearer.

iirc the rules said something along the lines of no more than 5mm movement - but the test itself only tested for movement in one direction. Therefore a car could pass the test, but technically still not be within the rules.


btw it wasnt just ferrari who had a floor of this type

that depends what the rules specifically state about wings.

 

and where did the number 75 come from ?
looks like a pure guess to me.