Can you do your own maintenance on a 360?

I don't have a ferrari yet, but i was wondering if one can do their own maintnance on a ferrari 360? I've been playing with cars (hondas and BMWs) for the last 11 years and i'm able to do all my own maintenance working on things like like oil and fluid changes, brakes, suspension, water pumps, timing belts, axles, etc. Even did a couple of engine and transmission transplants by myself and found this to be extremely easy and straight-forward.

Would it be realistic to expect that I would be able to work on a Ferrari as well? Do they need any special tools that are available to ferrari mechanics only? All your responses would be greatly appreciated.

 

Several individuals in this forum do their own repairs and maintenance, so yes it can be done. Some special tools are required here and there, but you can always purchase them yourself. Routine maintenance like oil changes and brakes are easy to do, others are more involved, but not impossible.

 

I have seen a post about replacing a fuel pump and sending unit that was thorough and detailed so there are definitely some jobs able to be done by the owner. I dont know of anyone doing a timing belt which seems to be the most important job, but if they could do that then they would save some serious $$. The best thing about the 360 is that you dont have to lower the engine to to this so it might not be out of the question for a DIY. I am with you though, I would rather try and do it myself if possible. I have done a number of Audi's and its not too bad once you get into it.

 

I believe you are referring to my post - where I fixed the sending unit problem on my 360. That was a fun job!

To answer Vlad's question, I grew up building motors and working on cars, etc. also. The Ferrari is just another car in many respects (when it comes to working on it yourself). As long as you don't run into any situations which require the SD2 or SD3 computer, then you can do most things yourself. However, it's important to keep in mind the 360 isn't a Honda or Toyota. There are some areas where you have to be careful and know what you are doing.

On my 355, I did all my own work (except where something was covered by a factory warranty, such as replacing the CAT ECU's or replacing a header, etc). I put in new plugs, changed the oil, did the exhaust, etc. I switched over to SS brake lines and installed larger size Brembo brakes myself. When I sold the car, I was getting ready to install kevlar front and rear bumpers to reduce weight.

On my current car (a 360) I'm actually getting ready to replace the timing belts myself (probably in the next 6 months or so). Not only do I want to upgrade to the new style kevlar lined belts, but I also want to check to make sure the tensioners are okay and/or replace them if there are upgraded versions out. I also noticed Hill Engineering makes some sort of replacement tensioner bearings, but I'm unclear exactly what the difference between their version and the Ferrari version is (I have contacted them via e-mail for further information however).

When I do the belts on my car, I will detail the job with photos and a write up. I will most likely be doing the job through the access panels behind the seats.

At some point in the future, I also plan on replacing the clutch myself. It's okay for now, but starting to show its age at higher RPM's. At the moment, I'm researching the possibility of replacing the factory clutch with a Tilton carbon/carbon assembly. This requires the installation of a new flywheel, as well as a carbon 3 disc clutch package and custom pressure plate. Time to produce the parts is nearly 4 months though.

If the belts and clutch end up being done at the same time, I may consider dropping the motor. However, in order to do this, I would need to probably fabricate a motor stand, not to mention getting a scissors type lift for the garage.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, you can do most of the routine stuff on the car no problem. It's still not a bad idea to take the car to a dealer once in a while, however. If for no other reason, than to put it on the SD2/3 and see if there are any issues developing that have not come to the surface yet.

Ray


Anyway,

 

Be careful of the resale issue - the average 360 buyer can afford to be discriminating and may shy away from a car maintained by the owner as opposed to a dealer or qualified shop serviced car.

 

Ray,
I believe it was your post about the sending units. Great documentation. If you would be so kind as to do the same thing when you do the timing belts that would be fantastic. I am planning on doing as much as I can when I get mine so all this knowledge really helps out. Thanks !

Brett

 

+1

 

The average 360 owner can't change his/her own oil - so they have little choice in the matter.

Ray

 

When I do my belts, I'll post a full write up. I'm in the R&D process right now. I have to read through the Ferrari workshop manual and go over the entire procedure. I've built engines and timed cams in the past, but when working with a Ferrari (or any motor that is new to you), you do have to be extra careful and make sure you know exactly what is required.

Speaking of belts, I ran across an interesting link the other night. If I'm not mistaken, Dayco makes the timing belts for Ferrari. In the link below, it makes a mention about changing the belts at 60,000 miles if the no OEM interval is recommended.

http://www.daycoproducts.com/daycoweb.nsf/News%20-%20New%20Warranty%20Program?OpenForm

Of course, Ferrari does recommend 30K miles Nevertheless, I thought it was at least a little bit interesting that the people making the belts suggested 60K miles.

Ray

 

Okay, I took a minute and read over the timing belt replacement procedure from Ferrari. On a scale from 1 to 10, I would say it appears to be about a 5 or 6 perhaps. (1 being changing the oil, 5 being installing a tubi and hyper flow cats, 10 being an engine/trans swap).

If you have built motors and/or timed cams in the past, then it's pretty straight forward. It appears doing the job via the inspection hole is a touch more tedious than doing it with the motor on a stand, but not overly so. There are a couple of things to watch out for, but basically it's pretty straight forward. I would say it's a little beyond the level of your average DIY'er out there, but for anyone comfortable putting in pistons and a crank into a block and/or assembling a valve train on a cylinder head (and then timing a motor), it's no big deal (although clearly there is zero room for error on this job).

In reading through the documentation, it requires a few additional steps (you have to drain the cooling system, for example), but nothing too bad. It also appears you need to either buy and/or fabricate a couple of tools to help, but again, nothing too complex.

The only tricky part is that Ferrari specifies the belt tensions in Hz, not pounds. They outline the use of a frequency type belt tension meter, as opposed to a deflection type gauge. Since belt tension has a direct correlation to the frequency of the belt's vibration, you can set the tension by using a frequency meter. Basically you tap the belt with an object (in order to make it vibrate) and then measure the Hz at which the belt vibrates via its longest span.

The meter Ferrari recommends is made by this company:

http://www.clavis.co.uk

Click on "Tension Meters" and it will provide a nice run down of the theory of operation. Their Type 4 Universal Meter, which measures vibrations from 30 to 600 Hz, appears to properly fit the bill. I don't know the cost of the meter yet, but I have contacted the company for a quote. In some brief checking on line, it appears the meter may be north of $2000 however.

Luckily, you can convert Ferrari's "ideal timing belt vibrations in Hz" to lbs - although I have yet to do that. I suppose this would allow you to gauge the belt deflection in lbs (or perhaps in inch lbs) and arrive at the proper tension range. I'm guessing the Hz method is more accurate, since it requires no outside contact with the belt while the tension reading is measured.

If anyone happens to have a Type 2 or Type 4 Clavis Hz meter going to waste, by all means, drop me a PM

As mentioned, when I do the job, I'll be happy to provide a nice write up with photos.

Ray

 

Thank you very much for all your replies. Your input is greatly value and appreciated.
When i was upgrading to BMWs from HONDAs i was worried about maintenance, and i though BMWs would be more expenive to maintain and own, but that proved to be a myth. For some reason I had a fear of doing maintenance on a BMW at first, but after a $900 brake disk/pad job, i decided to cut down costs and start doing my own maintenance. So i got my hands on ETK parts maintenance and TIS repair manual, and was able to do everything on my own since then.

Now i'm starting to realize Ferrari service is not impossible for a DIY guy... It's true that parts, are more expensive, but it's all relative. It's all taken to a slightly higher level but i don't think I'll face any $15,000-30,000 service bills with ROUTINE maintenance on a 360, if i do my own work. ferraripartsexchange.com (not sure if it's a good site, but i googled things quickly without any further research) lists a factory rebuilt 360 engine for $28,500, so that's probably the worst thing that can break completely on the car. Regular maintenane like fluid changes, tires, belts, clutches, bushings, and other small things are priced reasonably i think.

I completely agree that the resale value might be affected and some buyers might be reluctant to buy an owner-maintained ferrari, as opposed to a dealer-maintained ferrari.. but i think it mostly depends on the condition of the car. If a car is driven regularly, meticulously maintained, and is in flawless mechanical condition, wouldn't it hold value compared to let's say a rarely driven and infrequently maintained garage queen?

Ray, I'm curious how many miles do you put on your ferrari every year? How long does a 360 clutch typically last for if it's driven nicely without any abuse? Out of all the routine maintenance that you have done, what was the most expensive thing you had to tackle?

 

Around 7500 miles per year. I don't drive that much in general, so a lot depends on how much I leave the house.

I think if you baby the clutch and take good care of it, it will probably last 20K or more. If driven correctly, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get 40K miles on it I would think. A lot of people seem to have issues starting around 15K on the 360, however. I think with the F1 system, it also tends to mask some of the symptoms from the driver (which you would otherwise start to notice/feel in the clutch pedal).

On the 360, I installed the tubi and hyper flow cats. I did the fuel sending unit and also repaired the alarm module. I installed new tail lights, as well as the rear challenge grill. Did the alarm antenna mod. Installed Tubi carbon fiber air box covers, as well as K&N filters. I put on titanium lug nuts also. I made a small repair to the mirror on the sun visor also.

I also replaced the pollen filter and bled the clutch slave cylinder. Polished the logo on the the plenum duct cover. Installed LED reverse lights. I think that about covers it.

Next on the list is the reverse shifter bushing, as well as the timing belts. I also need to do all the fluids.

Ray

 

Ray, what mileage is currenly on your car and until how many miles do you intend to keep the car? Or does it totally depend on how the car behaves itself in the future and when it starts having more serious problems? I'm just wondering at what mileage a compete engine rebuild is recommended and how long a typical 360 engine is designed to last if it's maintained properly.

 

I would think you could get 100K miles, if not more, from a properly maintained 360 motor. Hard to say.

I was going to get an F430, but I think the 360's lines are a little nicer myself. I'll probably hang onto the 360 I have now and drive it maybe around 5000 to 7500 miles per year. Hard to say for sure. Right now the car has a little over 13,000 miles on it.

Ray

 

The cost for the Clavis Type 4 meter is $1,400.00 USD and includes shipping to the US.

Ray

 

Ray,
From the tech docs you have is the tensioner in the 360 not auto/hydro? The first Audi engine I did had a mechanical tensioner and after I got done I had trouble getting to sleep wondering if it was right or not. The later ones in the B5 A4 with the AHA code engines has auto tensioners which was a huge relief. I would be surprised if Ferrari used a manual tensioner being such a critical adjustment..

 

Hey! I resemble that remark.

 

In reading over the procedure, it does show a tolerance which you have to adjust - this is between the tensioner and the "pulley-holder arm". It's a little difficult to tell from their photos in the manual, but it appears there is a gap in there, which must be set to between 1.9 to 2.3 mm. I image this would have some impact on the ultimate belt tension. The procedure later mentions (after checking the belt tension using the Clavis Hz meter) that:

"Should the values prove to be beyond the tolerance limits,
adjust the position of the belt-tensioner pulley until the
correct tension is observed."

This suggests to me that, while there is some hydraulic action involved with the tensioner(s) as you describe, the entire assembly must also be adjusted so that the functioning of the tensioner(s) produces the proper tension on the belts when the motor is operating. Until I open up the car and look back there myself to see how the tensioners function, I can't give you any better answer than that.

In other words, I'm not 100% sure

Ray

 

The hit wont be as big, just imagine all the money that will be saved.

 

Ray,

Are you F1 gearbox or 6 sp? I have not done 360 belts nor bothered to read the manual for it, but I've done most everything underneath. Didn't the 360 have oil feed hydralic tensioners? If yes then isn't there a spring in the tensioner like older cars that offers some belt preload then the actual operational tension is provided by the oil in the tensioner? If yes aren't you then only verifying the HZ not setting it?

 

My car is a 6 speed manual.

As far as the belts, there is an adjustment on the tensioner bearing I believe, plus a clearance specification listed in the manual. To some degree, yes, you are just verifying the belt tension via the Hz measurement. However, part of the process is turning the motor over manually a couple of times, which I believe is to build up pressure in the tensioner.

I've only looked at the manual (not the car itself), but my guess is that it is possible to end up with the tensioner too loose or too tight if you aren't paying attention to what you are doing.

I will know more after I do a little more research and also look back there to see how things look. I may also be switching over to Hill Engineering tensioners when I do the job.

Ray


Ray

 

Well, here's the latest update on my DIY belt project.

After researching a number of different belt tension meters on the market (the type that measure the frequency vibration of the timing belt in Hz without touching it), I have decided they are all over priced The one Ferrari recommends is $1400.00. I've also located several others, ranging in price from about $500 to $1000 or so. If there was one for $150 or $200, I might go ahead and buy it just to have it. However, since I don't run a shop and will probably only need this once every 3 to 5 years, I just can't part with the money they are asking.

So, what I've decided to do instead is to buy an Oscilloscope and setup my own device for measuring the vibration of the belt. I used to own a 4 channel 100 Mhz Oscilloscope a few years ago and am pretty familiar with using one. My thinking is that for a fraction of what these companies want for their belt tension meters, I can buy a nice used Oscilloscope and setup some sort of probe or microphone to measure the vibration of the belt (which I figure will fall in the 80 to 120 Hz range). After I'm done, instead of having a sonic belt tension meter going to waste, I'll have a nice scope!

So the scope should be no problem. However, I'm a little unsure exactly what I will have to rig up as far as the probe part (which actually measures the belt vibration). I figure either a very sensitive microphone or, ideally, some sort of small pressure/vibration transducer. I still have to chat with my friend that is an electrical engineer (and also the one who taught me how to operate an oscilloscope), and find out he suggests. I also have to look through some more electrical catalogs, etc. Like I say, I think some sort of transducer that is very sensitive and accurate between 10 and 1000 or 2000 Hz will do the job. As long as it is able to detect the pressure waves in the air generated by the belt, then I should be in business.

My assumption is that when the belt vibrates, it will do so at a relatively constant frequency, with a diminishing amplitude. If this is the case, then the scope should read a fairly fixed wave form - at least for the majority of the time it's vibrating. Then by measuring the belt and the span, I should be able to calculate the belt tension no problem, after arriving at the frequency of the belt.

So that's the latest. If anyone has any ideas on transducers that might work, I'm all ears.

Ray

 

Okay, another update.

I've located the oscilloscope I plan to buy for this project. It's on ebay, but I have to wait until bidding has come to an end. If all goes well, I'll be able to pick it up shortly - hopefully for around $150 to $200.

I've also located a small electroacoustic transducer that should work for measuring the vibration of the timing belt. From what I can see, this transducer is very sensitive - rated @ -38 dB +/- 2-3 dB and will operate in the ~40 Hz to 16 kHz frequency range. Since I expect the timing belt vibrations to fall within the ~ 50 to 150 Hz range (per branch), so this transducer should have no problem reading the vibrations produced. Then it will just be a matter of capturing the data on the scope and seeing what the frequency is. The transducer will cost about $10 or $15 including shipping - plus any cost to fabricate a small holder/wand for it.

So, if everything works out as planned, I should soon have myself a home made "sonic timing belt tension meter", not to mention a new oscilloscope to fiddle around with

Ray

 

Ray, you are genius! I can't wait to see how this wll turn out for you. Before making a decision to buy something, have you tried to find a ferrari mechanic that might lend you a belt tension meter for a small change?

What is the model of the oscilloscope you've decided to get?

 

I'm not big on borrowing (or loaning) tools. Also, part of the fun is doing it myself, instead of buying a tool that someone else has pre-packaged. With the oscilloscope, I can see the actual data from the vibration of the belt, instead of an average or extrapolation produced by some black box that I have no control over.

Anyway, as far as the specific model, once I get it, I will post some information and photos here. I used to have a slightly different model some years ago. This one is smaller, but more powerful. It also allows you to record the data coming in, so you can go back through it later. That will be helpful in verifying the Hz over the entire range of amplitude. So we'll see how it goes.

Once I get everything, then I'm going to inspect the area through the inspection panel back there. When I do that, I will test the current tension to see if it's within specs and also to verify that my meter works. Probably two or three weeks from now.

Ray