The official replica/re-creation thread

That replica did not fool the experts for five seconds. It fell through because no experts were asked. Unbelievable maybe, but true. Best wishes, Kare

 

How does a replica - of which 90 % look like **** - serve as an ambassadeur for the real thing?

Everyone having a close look at a GRP Cobra replica soon realizes these cars are jokes - bad jokes. Ferrari replicas are no different; they are jokes that may fool a 15-year-old, but really make the original cars look bad. Only 2-3% - that's 1 out of 30..50 - of the existing replicas can take another look before I can tell it's just another lousy fake (and I'm hardly an expert). And yes, I also think building these bastards is stealing money from the pocket of the owner of a real thing. I cannot find a way to accept that. I also feel very sorry for people who need a fake Rolex - or a fake Ferrari - to get their kicks. How low can you go; is there anything more pathetic?

I really really really think that people should find real cars that fit their wallet. There are hundreds and hundreds of wonderful cars out there! Best wishes, Kare

 

One thing that bothers me personally about the existence of replicas is that they overexpose the subject and dilute its effects on the senses. In this area, I think live about three real 250 GTO's and occasionally I get to see one of them in some car venue. However, a little Ghia Inter in that same venue interests me much more than the mightier GTO. Why? I think it's because the 250 GTO (real or replica) is like Pamela Anderson's boobs. You see them at least three times a week, somewhere.

john

 

I just love (not really) the breathless text of the FJ ad. Don't fret, vintage Ferrari lovers. GTE 3905 hasn't been destroyed. It's just been "reconfigured".

 

My 330 2+2 was sacrificed in an accident, with repair costs beyond the the insurance company's cutoff point or the funds I was willing to commit had I bought the car back.

I'm not sentimental. If I were much wealthier, I would have had no problems of conscience in rebodying it. That's what I suspect is going to happen to it anyway.

More needed spare parts for 330 owners out there, and a glorious reincarnation for #5409. I can't wait.

 

does that include leasing ?

because unless you buy out the lease you never 'really' owned it

 

In few words, that's what I think too...

 

There is no justification for the 250 GT 2+2 that was sacrificed to make the replica that started this thread. Another perfectly original and sound car was cut up for an inaccurate look alike.

Also if the "market" for these replicas/fakes was not so inflated by the pretenders (and $ seeking body shops, ie. it is cheaper to create a inaccurate fake than to repair AND get right ... effectively the same concept as "resale red"), then your car would either be used to support other REAL 330 2+2's or eventually restored by somebody with the right skills or funds and desire. A much better solution than another replica that will spend most of it's life on second hand car yards ...
Pete

 

I would not have problem with a replica if it would be possible to put the car back in its original configuration.

If so, yes, you can do whatever you want with your replica, enjoy it and drive it : you are the owner.

But you know that almost all replicas have the frame shortened and the body and accessories parted out.

So, the car is lost forever. That hurts !!

 

There is a big difference between a replica and a rebody. Over the decades we have unfortunately seen great design houses and coachbuilders come and go. Some of these "specials" are now very much sought after. Why build a replica and spend all that time and money on a copy? They look good, and some are crafted with great skill, passion and attention to detail. But if you are going to do it, be original, Glickenhaus did it with a perfectly good Enzo, nobody screamed and jumped up and down and poo pooed the going of a perfectly good Enzo. Zagato did a beautiful job on a 575 and nobody said "That's not a Ferrari how dreadful". They were praised and celebrated. There have been individual one off's pupose built cars from many of the top car manufactures for "special" customers to a design of their liking. So if you follow the logic if you are not part of the"in" crowd or think purist, does that mean you cannot design or have a wonderful new car designed? Or, when does modifying a Ferrari mechanically to point where it ceases to represent anything close to how it left the Factory qualify as a true example of the model. Do we exclude these as well? That's my 2 cents worth. What do you all think?
Cheers MG

 

Here's another question.

In the 1960s Fiat built a limited run of sportscars called the Dino, using the Ferrari V6 engine of 2.0 or 2.4 litres, basically so Ferrari could get the engine homologated for Formula 2 when they didn't have the production capacity to build enough.

They were typical 1960s Fiats - inclined to rust and not especially desirable, EXCEPT they were powered by a Ferrari Grand Prix engine. They didn't make very many, about 1500 convertibles and 6000 coupes, and they're not making any more, so values nowadays are reasonably high for a small old sportscar, maybe $30,000 for a well restored spyder and $15-20k for a berlinetta.

When singer Chris Rea wanted a Ferrari 'Sharknose' for his film, he had one built from a Fiat Dino because there weren't any left; likewise there are no surviving 1959-spec F1 Ferrari 256's left as they were all rebuilt for 1960, but a guy in the UK who specialises in Fiat Dinos has built one from a Fiat - see:
http://www.trentsideclassics.co.uk/

Could we now be saying neither of those Fiat Dinos should have been 'sacrificed' to create non-original facsimiles? Where is the line drawn?

Paul M

 

Because it is a period rebody ... you cannot do un-period rebodies without destroying something of historic value (to somebody).

Pete

 

Just because FIAT made them does not make them less interesting. The car world will be a poorer place when there are none left ... it's a volume thing. You wouldn't make a replica out of an original Tucker would you

Now if FIAT had made 2,000,000 of them and 200,000 still existed then it's like using Ford components in a GT40 ... who cares they are plentiful, and thus I guess it is better than using a Ferrari Dino. Why not just use a 2/2.5 litre Alfa Romeo v6? ... does the engine really have to look the same, everybody knows it's a replica, why not just use a plentiful power plant and tune to same power and torque. If replica owners were not out to fool people the driving experience is what counts ... and you cannot see the engine (in most cars) when driving!! Now Chris used his for a movie ... but a bit of fibreglass could have made any engine look more real ... like they did with the 60's F1 movie (name has escaped me).
Pete

 

I think Bryan had the right idea. Look at Superfast performance and their Carol Shelby authorized offerings. If Colt can offer an updated and upgraded Navy .36 cap and ball revolver with an unbroken line of serial numbers and Winchester can offer an upgraded 30/30 lever action commemorative series, why can’t Ferrari license someone to make an improved updated 250s? They wouldn’t be inexpensive but they wouldn’t be multi-million dollar auto’s either. If you look at “0846” and all the argument about replica vs. reconstruction and take away the central question of original parts being used and built another car from scratch he would with out a doubt have a reproduction and if Ferrari licensed Jim to build it you would then have a Ferrari authorized reproduction hopefully with a factory issued serial #. Perhaps you could get the Ferrari Classiche program involved in the certification process. How about it Jim? Want a fun business building Factory authorized, period correct, certified reproductions of some of the most beautiful and rare Ferraris? How about some 250Ps, 250TRs, 250GTOs,250 GT Berlinetta Interims, just to name a few.

 

Mr. Ferrari did authorize a P 4 replica, Davids 0900. Ferrari recently built a pure replica 125. MS told the press that he was very careful when he drove it around at their 60th Anniversary Celebration because it was so valuable. They also in writing told me, a bit disingenuously IMO as they manufactured parts in 2002 that enabled me to, that I shouldn't have used a chassis that they had thrown into the garbage to revival an car, but did allow that the pieces I'd saved were glorious. As Bob said: "We all see it from a different point of view..."

 

The film was 'Grand Prix' - most of the cars filmed were modified Formula Junior Lotus 20s, but MGM also bought & filmed some real 1.5litre F1 cars that were just 'cheap obsolete racecars' at the time. Now they are very expensive historics that race at Goodwood - even the FJ Lotus's are very valuable for racing as there is a big historic FJ movement now both in Europe and Oz.

For people who like old Fords, chopping them up for 'new' Cobras and GT40s is just as bad - it's all about perspective as well as numbers. As I said, where do you draw the line - at a few hundred Ferrari GTE's, at a few thousand Fiat Dino's, or some don't want any old cars to be lost or even changed from original.

Chris Rea wanted to enjoy driving his car (so a totally unoriginal lookalike wouldn't have given him that pleasure I think), as well as use it in 'La Passione'. A few years ago pre-production work for a film version of the book 'Mon Ami Mate' started with some replica 1958 F1 cars using road car bits - no problem, they were just film props and there was no possibility of confusing them with the many genuine Vanwalls, Maser 250F's etc that were too valuable to be used up.........which is not the same as racing them hard for the delight of their owners and lots of spectators.

Paul M

 

i see them every year at the vintage races...tony wang gives his pontoon car all he can give it!

 

Wow!! A 250 GTE that actually looks good!!

 

I would wager that one could take a replica 250GTO built from a GTE to Ferrari Classiche and the factory would be more than willing to rebuild it to factory new condition as a GTE. So the GTE so used to build a replica is not just gone. Its just transformed and it can/could be transformed back. Few things done cannot be undone.

Whether a GTE has been "destroyed" (your opinion, not mine) by a Tom Meade rebody in the mid 1960s OR received a rebody within the last several years either way an original Ferrari is gone and now we have something else. To view the two as totally different just because of the date the work was done is silly. 40 years from now is a top quality rebody done in 2006 really going to be seen in a totally different light than one done in 1966? Maybe so to some but not so to others.

The best solution to this of course would be for Ferrari to build and make available either complete new builds of these vintage cars OR to build and make available key parts such as frames, engines, transmissions and such.

It would be very nice if the historic originals could be kept safe and exact replicas could fill race grids and allow drivers to really race the cars to the limit.

I see this issue (which as we all know will never be solved) as a fundamental difference between those who view the cars as art and those who view them as CARS. One set of enthusiasts cares about the value, history, value, aesthetic glory, value and the value. The other sets cares about the history and how much fun the cars are to drive. One group loves garage art and accounting ledgers, the other loves screaming V12s and 4 wheel drifts.



Terry

 

Paul

Minor point. No Fords are chopped up to make Replica Cobras/GT 40's. They are new built kits using new crate engines.

That said an AC was chopped up to make the Original Cobra.
Best

 

Most of us here love cars in general but Ferrari in specific. I can understand why someone who loves cars in general but isn´t particulary into Ferrari´s wouldn´t think twice about a 250 GTE being chopped up look like a pontoon Testa Rossa, but why would a Ferrari-enthusiast accept that a perfectly fine example is ruined to be made into something it isn´t and can never be?

 

Interesting comments. If 90% of the replicas look like junk then 10% don't. By the way, how can you tell if a car that looks genuine is actually not a replica? You would have to have all the originals arranged around it, or have an expert examine it, or have someone point it out to you.

My point about a replica being an ambassador is that those folks (ten year olds through 90 year olds) who have never seen one of the 39 GTOs for example, would never fully appreciate a GTO until they see one. A faithful replica is one more car that they have the chance to see. For example, a 410 Sport is a great early car. But only four were made. How many enthusiasts will really get a chance to see one in person, or see it in action at the track? A faithful replica would fill the void. Of course, finding an appropriate Lampredi motor and drivetrain might not be so easy and that is why you don't see these cars faithfully recreated. But 250s are more plentiful and the cars that are destined to be parts cars are doing more for the marque as donor cars than if they were allowed to rust into the ground.

The discussion about value is a distraction. Fake Rolexes haven't devalued the real ones any more than recreated versions of the painting "Sunflowers" has develued the original.

There's an a$$ for every seat. Cheers

 

Many chopped cars are worth much more than the car they started with.

The 32 Duce Coupe that's on the Beach Boys Album and is on Display in the Henry Ford Museum for example.

A 275 GTB NART is an example of a chopped Ferrari that is as well.

 

Per 100 genuine GTE/s that have been scapped we have gotten 90 GTO, SWB and TR-replicas that look wrong in almost every aspect. Some of them look decent but are still incorrect in many aspects. Some are so wrong that they should be regarded to be original designs. Then there is a handful of replicas which look quite correct but the price we've paid (around 30-50 PF Coupes, 150-200 GTEs and 150-200 330GTs) for maybe 10 decent (fake) cars altogether is quite high, really.

I've never come to think of it - maybe we should place plastic tigers in every street corner so everyone would have a chance to see a tiger... This way everyone would learn to fully appreciate these animals that are so rare and hard to see in their natural habitat...?

They have. One Omega executive once said that fake Rolex sellers bring plenty of business their way as people are disgusted with what Rolex is today. Of course those customers who want Rolex for what it is (best case on the market with mediocre mechanicals) stay with Rolex. Many other customers have changed to a watch that does not make them look like imposters. Best wishes, Kare

 

I wasn't aware there were that many replicas out there. It sounds like there are more willing buyers than I originally thought.

This is why we have the zoo. Real tigers can be seen by real people who will most likely not see them in their natural habitat. Of course, if you see one in its natural habitat you probably won't live to tell anyone.

So those who want to pay a few dollars for a Rolex can buy one and those who want to pay for the real thing can do so as well. This is very similar to the situation with Ferrari replicas. By the way, I agree their movements are nothing special - check out a vintage Seiko 6138 for a great alternative, and their cases are fantastic too.

It boils down to market demand. When there are 1000 or more 250 and 330 powered replicas on the market, maybe someone will start rebodying them as GTs

Cheers