The official replica/re-creation thread

i own a recreation, although not a ferrari v12 recreation. i agree that cars shouldn't be sacrifced for a recreation. however, for the most part, these are a thing of old. very few of these are being created today off of road worthy cars. about the only new ones being built are off of completely ruined cars. cars that would never see the light of day again if they didn't have a chassis number. most the engines are long gone and it is a blending of what is left that we see.

i don't like to see any car being "hacked" apart, but these are what they are. nobody in their right mind is going to take one of these recreations and return it to it's original form. let's not forget that rebodies also have rarer "original" chassis and engines than just gte's. there are lusso's and others, including a 250 california running around with bodies not as they left the factory

 

+1

depends how far gone the original is.
as i said before i certainly cannot condone it being done to a decent example.

destroy no (see last comment)
but id dearly love to be able to own/drive one of the special cars - even if it was a nut and bolt recreation as id get the proper experience.

and kudos to you for doing this.
but the buy in price for a ropey alfa wont likely be comparable to a ropey/damaged ferrari
and the parts costs (certainly engine/transmission) wont be comparable

dont belittle yourself.
what youve done sounds fantastic - the budget might be lower, but really an thruthfully its no different to what jims done with his collection.

thing is pete the car in question in this thread is already done.
its not like by showing interest that your asking someone to go out and find a decent gte and convert it for you.
as i (and others) have stated we arent saying go out and destroy a good car, but by all means if your starting with a car thats not viable to repair then its a different matter - and whilst your alfo project is cool, try and find someone to buy a wrecked 60's ferrari and do the same thing, the values and costs being so much higher it wontb e an easy thing to do.

oh and dont be dissing the british cars - we've made some of the best (though not for a long time )
jaguars xk 120/140/150, c/d/e type, mk2
aston martins - too numerous to mention
plus several others

 

I would buy it solely for what it looks like and fun factor, ignoring what it's pretending to be.

 

You are, as you are showing interest in the replica market. Remember the people that make these things are after a buck ... that's all.

If I was running the Ferrari Classiche program, I would budget for purchasing these cars (when they came up for sale) and destroying them at the factory. The parts removed from them would then be restored and sold as spare parts. This would increase the value of original cars and thus support restoring to original and also lower the price of spare parts. Italian law would also support this direction ... and it is better than the complete car being crushed like those Maserati replicas.

Okay that really was my last comment .
Pete

 

Those Ferrari owners who say that "it's just a car" they just happen to have enough means to own one. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are true enthusiasts.

Old Ferraris are not just cars. They are ultra special mechanical marvels. How many cars do you know that are consistently beautiful and have dominated racing and are created by a charismatic, mystical autocrat and give you goose pimples when revving at 6000 RPM? Okay, you can't say Bugatti because we're talking Postwar here.

Those who own a mere six figure Ferrari today should consider themselves very lucky as in the future even these "lower tear" Ferraris will be under the lock and key of the super wealthy.

john

 

I did a little counting.

I have something like 21 Pininfarina Coupes and 125 GT/Es (incl. 330 Americas) having been rebodied. That's 6% vs. 12,5% of production. I also show a few dozens of cars stripped or otherwise on their way to become fakes.

It is particularly unfortunate that 250 PF Coupe is a two seater; the chassis rails are located lower in rear part of the chassis, so it is possible to shorten the chassis and still have the driver seat placed in correct position. This is why so many Boano/Ellenas and PF Coupes are still biting dust. GTE chassis does not allow you to move the seat back more than maybe 100-150 mm at max, so if you are 6 ft long, you end up sitting uncomfortably close to the steering wheel. And one should remember that many Berlinettas were designed for small drivers in the first place; so some of the replicas can't be driven at all unless you are a midget! From my point of view it is particularly funny that as a result you end up with a car that looks like **** and drives like ****. With the "fun factor" wiped out, you can still play a hero for the 12-year-old kids, of course.

 

It will be interesting to see how the sentiment changes regarding replicas when Anthony Wang and Matsuda own every single pre-80's Ferrari.

Peter

 

A lot has been said about the driving experience, so allow me to throw in a few words. My bias is pro replica btw.

I had the pleasure and honor of driving the GTO replica shown in the pictures below. It is based on a Dastun, but there isn't much left of that car. Most of the suspension has been replaced with racing gear, engine is a BMW V12, interior is custom made, exterior is custom made body. At this point its power to weight ratio is near that of an Enzo. In other words a bat out of hell.
The car's performance is superb, its sound even better, the looks are fantastic, so it is a lot of fun. But you don't get that Ferrari feeling, because your brain still knows that it isn't.

My 308 looks great, sounds ok, underperforms, yet is a Ferrari. So I love it, but it too leaves something to be desired. Combining these thoughts I can very well imagine why somebody would enjoy a TR or GTO rebody on a GTE chassis including some modern upgrades like disk brakes: You get something, that looks great (not withstanding some very detail oriented purists), performs great, IS a Ferrari and gives you an experience probably fairly close to the real deal. And you can even enjoy it on the streets as you are not driving around with something worths 20 million.
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Can the driving experience ever be similar if not based on an actual 250 chassis? The rigidity will be different, the feeling will be different, the suspension, etc. When a "replica" is based on a Nissan chassis built 20 years after the fact, nothing about the car is similar except for how it looks. This leaves us with the only options of building a 250 from scratch or tearing down a real Ferrari. The former would be impossible to register.
In my opinion, to uphold the argument that the owner is trying to achieve the experience, it has to be built on an official period Ferrari chassis. I am against replicas. There are plenty of rewarding cars to drive in every price bracket. A true auto enthusiast recognizes the value in cars of all prices and can find something to fulfill their desires.

Peter

 

Well, there´s the difference. I feel nothing for a car like that. I wouldn´t be honored driving a Datsun that is made to look like a 250 GTO (without too much success). I wouldn´t care how it drives either. It is simply no Ferrari and in fact I believe in this shape and form it makes a karikature out of the real deal. I can´t even perceive it as being flattering in any way. It doesn´t appeal to me as a car-enthusiast and it is almost offensive to me as a Ferrari-enthusiast. At least a Ferrari wasn´t butchered for it.

 

The Superformance Cobras and GT40s actually go the route of building the original cars from scratch. A GT40 has over 90% interchangeable parts with the original. They get really close to the original driving experience and hence the cars are so popular. Not really a problem to register btw.

 

We had recently an event where about two dozen Ferrari owners came together, including the depicted 250 GTO replica. The owners were given ballots to vote for their favourite cars. This car came in 3rd, beating over 20 real Ferraris, including a couple F430s. You might not like it, but others do. Including Ferrari owners.

 

Ferrari have forced this upon us by so vehemently going after replica builders. In my possibly myopic view, taking a lesser car and making into something its not is like losing two cars. The first is gone for all intents, and the remains are not fully considered a Ferrari. What remains is not unlike a ghost, there in our midst, but not really there. The only way to stop this madness, is for either Ferrari to allow replicas, or for the automotive world to change laws to allow it on some level. I never could really see how a reasonably correct replica TR would hurt Ferrari's image, but a 308/348/355 bodied Fiero wont?

As to the argument that its personal property and we can do whatever as we see fit, I believe that is a very arrogant attitude. Legal perhaps, but morally arrogant. The very fact that humans prize ancient artifacts in original condition, shows us that maintaining something in period original condition should be the goal. And it should be the goal to pass it down to another generation, not hoard it like an ogre under a bridge, never to be seen again. You cant have it both ways, have car shows you all seem to think you like going to and show your cars, while simultaneously wanting to be buried in your car for all eternity. If you snuff out the remains, what sounds and colors will young men see or hear in the tomorrows? My God, my enthusiasm was sparked by seeing these cars at an early age, as were many of you as well. Someone else allowed us to see or hear them, dont we then owe something back? Is that not some inherent responsibility we accept when we become keepers of the flame?

I propose everyone come back to the center. Stop destroying one car to make another, stop Ferrari from mandating what can be built from scratch, and get people to share the cars more with the world. To be really truthful, I would much prefer seeing a scratch built 250 TR, than seeing even a poor 4 headlight 330 destroyed to make one. Ferrari did it wrong IMO, they should have stomped thier foot down on rebodies and left replicas alone. There are well enough laws and documents in place to prevent copies being passed off as originals to protect everyone, including the "my garage" feature in the owners website.

 

But what type of event are we talking about? Try taking it up to Pebble Beach and then see what happens. The car is a joke and in every event that doesn´t take itself and the Ferrari-brand too seriously, it probably will humor some people. I, however, take Ferrari´s very seriously.

 

I share half of this view. The Datsun cum Ferrari is somewhat offensive to the breed. But a scratch built chassis built to original specs would actually be more of a nod to Ferrari breeding. But rebodying should be a last resort. In that case I would rather see more Datsuns cut up.

Given my choice, if I had one, I would love to own a scratch built pontoon fendered 250 TR. The real deal is so far beyond me, and would be totally rediculous to drive around anywhere. But a reasonably true replica could be a lot of fun to toss around, drive on dirt roads in the back country, and really enjoy as Ferrari had originally intended. I guess I see it as the duck principle. ie; if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck..... That Datsun is really missing two out of three I think.

 

Andreas,

The Datsun based car bothers me much less than the GTE based car. The Datsun is more along the lines of a tribute car. Personally, If I was going to go through all of this effort, I'd rather make something unique like the english 400 2+2 that was has an original style body on it. To me a rebody to a unique design a la Tom Meade is much less offensive than a fake.

Regards,

Art S.
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Of course you cannot take this car to any prestigious event. That's a given. But there are plenty of other events around the country. Many FCA or FOC events wouldn't have an issue with it. On top of that there are many other car enthusiast groups, events and rallies that'd be happy to have this car. Those folks obviously aren't as purist in their thinking, but that doesn't mean they don't have fun.

 

Precisely the case. As mentioned many times before, anybody who sees a 250 GTO at your local Hooter's show knows that it ain't the real deal. But that doesn't mean they don't enjoy it.

 

You funny Rob.

Actually you hit a nerve: I see less and less top of the line/rare Ferraris at shows of FOC and FCA. Even big shows like FCA Nationals have less of the true jewels (like a 250 GTO would be). The cars become so rare and valuable that the owners only risk taking them out of the garage/vault for the super events (Goodwood, Cavallino, Villa d'Este, Pebble Beach). That is really sad. I don't expect a Ferrari @ Hooters, but I would really like to see the rare ones at Nationals.

 

I would have huge respect for such a car if it didn't try to be something it isn't; 240Z is a gorgeous car after all. With the modified looks it has "I'm SOOOO shamed of driving a Datsun, that I just had to do something about it!" written all over it and that makes the car - and the owner look real bad.

 

I am not sue this rememberance really fits this thread, but it just occured to me. I remember as a teenager, with no real knowledge of anything but contemporary muscle cars. There was a salvage yard fairly close to home, it was filled with Ferraris, Maseratis and all sorts of exotic sports cars and a peculiar Gold Rolls that was used in some movie. I would wander that yard for hours on end...I found a burned out Ferarri...don't recall what it was exactly...but to me it was beautiful...price $1000.00. Well beyond my 14 year old means...I begged my father to take a look...he was NOT a car guy...cars to him were transprtation...I finally got him to accompany me...he agreed that it was a good lookin car...the owner of the yard talked us out of it, because as he put it a burned out car like that could never be restored...little did I know...A few years later all of the exotics were gone and the yard was filled with wrecked american cars...To this day I wonder what happened to all of those wrecked sports cars? The name of the place was R&R salvage...If anyone who was active in the exotic car business in the 60's in Atlanta knows, I would love to hear about it.

Also, there was a warehouse in downtown Atlanta that house a collection of marvelous cars...the watchman would let us in occasionally to look but not touch...they also just disappeared...

Is there a point to any of this rambling? I don't know, but the memories are all too clear and I regret not knowing what I was really looking at...

 

Wrong way to look at it. The owners weren't ashamed of the Datsun, but started there because it is the best base for this project. They didn't start with a Datsun trying to figure out what to do with it. They bought a Datsun deliberately for this project.

The thing that is amusing to me is, that when somebody builds a replica on a non Ferrari, the purists say this is way too removed to be anything worthwhile. At the same time when somebody builds something on the basis of a real Ferrari, the purists get upset for the sacrificed car.

 

What do you expect? Isn't that what the term "purist" implies? They won't be happy with some car that looks like a Ferrari, and they won't be happy when a real Ferrari is lost to some pseudo Ferrari.