Should I Change My Belts Or Just Forget It Until They Brake?

Dr. C - sorry - my apologies - I didn't read all the posts.............
Kevin

 

Doc.. I just wanna say nice car!... Keep her in good health! I too am like you I'm keeping my car forever! But earlier this year about March, while discussing "future work" with my mechanic ( A noted Ferrari one at that!) we discussed my timing belts and the next service. I told him about the (major) last belt change in '03 or '04. (I don't have my records in front of me right now).. and I mentioned getting them done again in 2008.. His response was "why"?.. You aren't going to put on that many miles..
His response was more like you're good until 2009, or so!

 

Well I think that you should be commended for even coming up with the idea. Certainly is a new twist on the timing belt debate.

 

I know where to find him if your missing that final input

 

It is clear that debate persists concerning Ferrari's recommended interval for cam-belt change. I have been consistent in my skepticism and, more appropriately, cynacism vis-a-vis a good business model versus good engineering sense. Changing belts every 5 years or 30,000 miles makes good business sense if you are a Ferrari dealer or independent mechanic, but it makes no sense economically if you are an owner.

Yes, Fusion Sports, Ferrari ownership is not for everyone. Just as purchasing a Lotto ticket is a tax on those that don't know math, changing belts every 5 years or 30k is a tax on those that aren't engineers or mechanically inclined.

But this debate can continue forever. Allow me to approach it from a different perspective. All those over 60 years of age, please chime in and give your perspective on the necessity of frequent belt changes. All those under 60 do the same. I posit that with gray hair (experience) one becomes much more cynical and, consequently, old farts are less likely to rush down to their dealer to have an unnecessary surgery performed on a perfectly good car.

Furthermore, as Ferrari ownership is not for everyone, I also suggest that those over 60 who own Ferraris are, in general, better able to afford this unnecessary service. Finally, allow me to stretch and guess that most of us over 60 have owned not one, but several Ferraris during the past 30 years or so, and this is not a rash purchase as a dying gesture, but a manifestation of the love for the marque and the engineering .

Yes, Ferrari ownership is not for everyone. It is probably best left in the hands of the mature.

Let the mud-slinging begin.

Jim S. (Boxer, Testarossa, Dino, Dino, Dino, 365GT/C4; -- first Ferrari purchased 1976).

 

Can't even imagine not replacing the belts and just giving it the chance to detonate.
It's a cheap replacement and some time on your part.
A bent valve is not the only thing that can happen.
It will stress many parts and dump a whole lot of metal anywhere and potentially everywhere in the engine, through bearings, filters, oil lines etc.
Do not even contemplate it.
Still can't see why some people have the same view on engine oil.
Lets see if I can drag out the oil change just a few more 1000 miles. But what for?
Some of the guys I race with in Historics dump the oil after every meeting. Why not?
It is cheap insurance on your expensive piece of kit. I'm not that good and will replace the oil after every two meetings or so.
It costs maybe $100 if using expensive oil and is a good thing for your engine.
Don't cut corners or drag out your maintenance, and just take care of the car/engine. It doesn't really cost that much more and is good insurance.

 

I believe that anyone prescribing extending belt changes beyond five years should have to pay the damages for anyone who listens to you and dont make it. If the money was coming out of your pocket I dont think we would be having these rediculous discussions.

I doubt that any one of you, if you have a daughter away at college somewhere, or your mothers car, or your wifes car, would prescribe she extend the belt service on her Honda or Toyota 30-50% time or mileage beyond the recommended interval. Why would you tell your friend to make this mistake? Friends shouldnt let friends blow up Ferrari's. I dont care if someone came up tomorrow and said they went 30 years and 200K miles on thier belts, or thier oil, or their antifreeze, tires, or anything else, I would just shake my head and "so!" So you made it, ya wanna medal? Want us all to follow you? Not me man, not me. These arent Toyotas and Hondas you go buy a motor in a junk yard for $600 and slap together in a weekend. When these suckers go it hurts people really bad financially. It ruins relationships. It ruins the pride of ownership. No good at all comes of it. Why would you want anyone you call a fellow enthuiast to risk going through that garbage?

 

I dont like posting these pictures, it looks rather crude. But I was searching around for a common tool anyone might have readily available they could use in a pinch. As long as your not an idiot and dont try to tighten it excessively, no harm will be done. Once locked, the cams cant physically just flip or turn, theyre stuck. There are certainly better tools a guy could use, but this worked "now". I had the car, I had the belts, and I didnt want to wait and didle around I wanted to run it and see what I had. I never put the compressor back in, the AC wasnt working anyway. But I had the new belts in and the engine running in less than an hour.

Once an engine has had a full engine service and been degree wheeled, once your "sure" its accurately timed, this job could be done without really altering the basic timing. Put it on TDC, check the marks through the oil cap, mark the belts, transfer the marks to the new belts, put in the new belts and bearings, and your done. If this were done between every major service, and if majors were every six years, there is absolutely no reason for not doing it. Heck, you could probably extend majors to 8 years and belts to 4 and not have any real trouble unless miles were high. To many people and repair shops are making this GD job out to be a freaking nightmare, and its NOT! I could do this job in a walmart parking lot if I had too, its that easy.
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Paul - Before we get too "testy", this is a friendly and constructive debate. My comments are simply to suggest that there is a difference of opinion concerning frequency of belt change.

However, you do raise an interesting business model. I will take you up on your suggestion. If I am offering for discussion that 5 years, 30,000 miles is too frequent, and you are suggesting that I be responsible for the cost of a rebuild should someone follow my suggestion, then fine. I will pay for their engine rebuild. Of course, you subscribe to the principle that anyone who accepts risk should enjoy reward.

Hence, I propose an insurance program. People pay me the cost of belt change at precisely the recommended interval. For a Boxer, let us contemplate $7,000 (bare bones belt change). I will insure them to 10 years and 60,000 miles. Hence, you pay for 1 service, and go the distance of 2 services. If you get there, then I will cover half the cost of the 2nd service. If you don't, then I pay for the repair. In this way you avoid having your car in for service and down time, and you save half the cost of a repair. I take the risk. I believe one could make a handsome living in this business.

Of course, this is a hypothetical discussion. Don't try this at home. But I do believe that there is a business here. For example, pay half the service cost at 5 years/30k, and at 10 years/60k the service is your dime. Basically the same model. The point is that I am willing to bet that the number of belt failures at 10years/60k is far less than 50%.

Thoughts?

Jim S.

 

LOL!

Certainly not the most unusual thing I've seen at Walmart.

 

OK, I'm sure I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I have to make this observation. I have started a couple of threads asking real technical questions about issues concerning my 328 and have received minimal response. Yet an idiotic thread like this is 4 pages long. There are sections on this site to just BS about all things Ferrari, and I'm not knocking that. I think that's a great thing to have and brings Ferrari owners together. Hurray for the internet! However, this stupid f*cking post was placed in the "technical" section and is 4 pages long. WTF????

Should I drive on my tires until they just f*cking explode?

Should I just drive until I run out of gas?

Should I never change my oil until my engine seizes?

Should I stick my thumb up my a$$ until it taste like chocolate?

Would these threads be pages long? On this site...probably. I'm not saying these type of thread questions aren't fun to ruminate over, but there are places for such Bullsh*t...definitely not the "technical" section. Dr. T, I'm not knocking you for starting this thread. If you're truly considering this....well...you're nucking futs...probably a hoot at a party, but nucking futs never the less. I guess I'm just annoyed that crap like this is what Ferrari owners are interested in talking about. Yawn.

Flame on!

 

Well, I am of the opinion that far less than 50% of the original cars still exist today. Many were parted out when thier belts went from neglect, when they burned up from bad fuel hoses from neglect, or just wouldnt run anymore from neglect. At one time I was told by an employee, that TRutlands was sawing three 308's in half every week, on average, and that most of the cars came in with blown belts. I seen with my own eyes a stack of perhaps 75 or more 308 engines with holes through the block. All from various causes, but all had broken belts. That was almost 10 years ago, and to my knowledge they are still just as busy today. . Thats one place on the planet. Then you have McCann, Italian Design, and others all doing the same, which does not consider europe, or australia, etc..

So how will you run your program. I have mentioned this before, I seen a 308 engine that had a shattered piston, a shattered liner, a holed block, and had thrown a rod into the gearbox. It was ALL junk, gearbox and all. Now, it had a broken belt, but was the belt broken when the cams jammed up from the crunched valve's? At least if you stay within known limits you keep failures to a minimum. Once you walk out on the plank there aint to many other directions left to go but down. Whether you would take responsibily for something like that or not, that was an incredible amount of unnecessary damage if it was caused by a neglected timing belt or tensioner failure. That engine is burned into my mind, and I see it everytime I imagine those $40 belts whirling round back there, and everytime someone starts question thier replacement. And as far as I am concerned, everyone should know what they are gambling with the second they want to push those belts past thier limits. This is extreme, but its a 348 belt failure. This car would cost more than half its value to repair. Oh yeah, a 348 has only one belt, so the other side of the engine is just as nasty. And no, this aint Tmobilguys car, but his was almost as bad cost wise. IIRC, this car had belts put in in 2001? I believe Tmobileguys car was just slightly past due for service when his flipped out. And Spirots 308 was just past 5 years when he threw a belt IIRC. Anyway, enjoy.....
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WOW! I had always heard the 308 was a sizably detuned engine resulting in its great reliability. I guess you just proved that rumor wrong.

 

Following off-line conversation with Artvonne (Paul), I agree that this topic suffers from equinonecrobestiality (loosely translated to beating a dead horse, or doing something with a dead horse).

In fairness, my comments and cynicism focus on flat 12 cylinder engines. I cannot intelligently comment on the 8 series, and as the engine does not come out for belt change, the economies and payback crossover are entirely different.

I understand Dr. Cosgrove's initial question to be hypothetical. And he has said as much. End of story. Thanks for the interesting discussion. It should forwarded to the Department of Redundancy Department.

Jim S.

 

I really wasn't trying to criticize you, Dr. T. You posed a fun question and it got some fun and critical response. I was really just taking a shot at the fact that this site seems to just be about BS instead of being the great resource it should be AS WELL AS a great BS hang out. I see many technical questions from myself and others come and go with no input. Then this becomes a top thread of the day???

I still think you're loco for even considering it, but hey, it's your car. A ballsy thought none the less.

On another topic, I'm a transplanted Texan, so I'm a neutral party. But it sure has been fun in my office with the Auburn vs. Alabama alum so far this year. I just toss grenades in the hall and watch the ensuing scrap. Ahhh, good times. My comment last week was "Mississippi State?? Are you kidding me? That's like picking a fight with the village idiot and then getting your a$$ kicked!" The response from both sides was priceless. ;-)

 

I guess I dont understand your thoughts. Its an engine, and just like any engine they can explode. Neglected, abused or over revved engines dont last very long. No matter who made them, there just isnt an engine made that cant be blown up or wrecked.

 

I think you are confusing the state of tune with required maintenance in regard to reliability. It may or may not be detuned (over-engineered?) but if a timing belt comes off because the belts were too old, oil leaked onto the belts or the bearings were not changed when they should have been you are going to get damage with an interference engine of any brand.

 

I've been making the 2V cam lock tools for several years, $150/pair. Pix & discussion in this thread:

Cam Gear Locking Tool for quick belt changes

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136366773#post136366773

I hope to finish the 4V cam lock design & get them into production this winter.

Tommy, I"m glad to see you've reconsidered changing your belts. Wise decision.

Helpfully, Verell