Bosch CIS, EFI, and bent valves | FerrariChat
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Bosch CIS, EFI, and bent valves

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by markcF355, Sep 14, 2007.

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  1. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #1 markcF355, Sep 14, 2007
    OK, I started out with:
    1. Oil in the water
    2. Water in oil
    3. One of the CIS units would not run smoothly
    4. A couple of trans issues

    I went the normal route of:
    1. Re torque the head bolts
    2. Replace the O rings under the oil filters
    3. Dittle with the CIS

    The oil in the water problem got worse. The water in oil got better. The CIS plunger would stick and lean out the mix...

    So now here I am with the motor out and in around a bazillion pieces. The only issue I found was five warped exhaust valves ( I think the mix leaned out because of the CIS problem)

    Here is where I'm going:
    1. I'm resealing the engine
    2. Cut the heads around 4 thou to clean them up
    3. General cleaning stuff
    4. I'm replacing the BOSCH CIS system with a electronic injection system that I'm building from scratch

    My question is:
    While I got this thing pulled apart is there anything I need to check? I wasn't going to dig into the lower end stuff so I haven't pulled the crank caps or rod ends. The motor has around 30k mile, so I'm guessing the lower end should be fine.
    Has anybody replaced their CIS system with an electronic system?
     
  2. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #2 markcF355, Sep 14, 2007
    Also, how do get the head studs out?
    They are strange size (10.85mm) so I can't find a three wheel or collet puller and my cam puller just slips.
    I don't want to buy some $400 Ferrari tool just for this one time.
     
  3. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    #3 GrigioGuy, Sep 14, 2007
    Talk to Mk_e in the 308 section. CIS is CIS, and lots of the 3x8 guys have converted to EFI
     
  4. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    #4 bpu699, Sep 14, 2007
    Just wanted to wish you luck... :) ... pics?
     
  5. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #5 markcF355, Sep 18, 2007
    OK, I finally found where the water leak was. It looks like a bearing in the water pump failed and the !@#$ that replaced it did not install all of the seals.
     
  6. blkprlz

    blkprlz Formula 3

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    #6 blkprlz, Sep 18, 2007
    Isn't that bearing R & R an engine out job? I understand there's a seal kit that can be popped in w/o pulling motor.
     
  7. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #7 2NA, Sep 18, 2007
    I'd be more than just a little interested in bearing condition after having water in the oil.

    Why do you want to remove studs? They are 11mm and unless they are hopelessly damaged LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!

    I know it's harder to clean the deck with them there but if you are careful with a razor blade (no power tools here) you can get a good surface.

    I'm not surprised that your water pump seal failed. Now is the time to get it rebuilt. It looks pretty simple but if you aren't careful and use the right tool to install the seal it could leak again. This pump is pretty damned hard to work on with the engine in the car so get it right the first time.

    There is almost never a seal you can just "pop" in.

    Good luck with the DIY injection. Check Electromotive they make aftermarket systems and you might be better to just use theirs.

    The CIS isn't the best system but when it's working it's not bad. Why not fix it?
     
  8. Fritz Ficke

    Fritz Ficke Formula 3
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    #8 Fritz Ficke, Sep 18, 2007
    Is the reason a Carb engine makes more HP and the Cis engine is smoother is becouse the carb engine cams have more overlap? if so that could be another fun thing to do to your car "while your at it". Please keep us informed of your progress, Thanks Fritz
     
  9. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #9 markcF355, Sep 18, 2007
    After double checking, the water pump did have all the seals in it.
    Anyway:
    I had some water in the oil and some oil in the water. I re-torqued the head bolts but around three months later I started loosing water.
    I pulled the motor. When I loosened the head nuts, around half seemed very loose. I wanted to remove them to check the threads inside the block.

    As for the CIS, I could never get the right bank to keep its setting. In fact at one point it went very lean. When I checked the valves on that side 5 of the 6 exhaust valves were warped.
    I think it is from the heat caused by the lean mix.

    For the conversion, I'm installing two wide band O2 sensors, an air temp sensor,and a throttle position sensor. I'll be tying all this into the Megasquirt that is currently running the ignition.

    Oh, and as far as the water in the oil, other than the evidence of the water pump failure the whole engine looks perfect.
     
  10. 2NA

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    #10 2NA, Sep 18, 2007
    The water came from somewhere.

    Most likely the water pump seal.

    Head gaskets are a possibility as well as a cracked cylinder liner.

    The head nuts could have been loose. It is highly unlikely that the studs are. It is possible to damage the stud or the threads into the block if you try to take them out. They could be siezed in place from corrosion.
     
  11. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #11 markcF355, Sep 22, 2007
    At this point I'm leaving the studs in. As far as the water pump, mine has a weep hole in the bottom between the oil and water sides.
     
  12. 2NA

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    #12 2NA, Sep 22, 2007
    That weep hole is important for the obvious reason. It can get clogged with debris (pieces of the seal material).

    When the seal fails (usually the carbon ring comes loose from the rubber bellows thingie) and leaks badly enough (engine hot, coolant under pressure) the coolant can get past the bearing into the oil.
     
  13. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #13 markcF355, Sep 22, 2007
    After pulling the whole thing apart I still have no idea where the leak is. It must have been the head gaskets. After I close it up, I'll pressurize the cooling system and see what happens.
     
  14. bundas

    bundas F1 Veteran
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    #14 bundas, Sep 22, 2007
    send off oil for analyzing, if you saved it. cost $20. if not its time to pull pan!
     
  15. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #15 markcF355, Sep 23, 2007
    Pan is off and clean. I'm going to pull two crank caps and two rod ends. If they look good, thats that.
    I bought 12 new stainless exhaust valves. (I'm too cheap to buy the sodium filled ones.)
    I put new bearings in the water pump.
    I'm replacing all the seals and gaskets.

    After I get the heads on, I'll pump up the cooling system with 100 psi of water to check for leaks.
     
  16. 2NA

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    #16 2NA, Sep 23, 2007
    Sodium filled valves are "old technology".

    You are much better off with stainless.

    Drop the contents of a tube of "Silver Seal" into the cooling passages of each bank before you put the heads on (old "indian trick").

    It's a good idea to run the engine before you pressure test.

    15-20 psig is plenty of pressure. Don't overdo it with too much pressure.
     
  17. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #17 markcF355, Sep 23, 2007
    Which one? Silver Seal / Copper Seal / Bronze Seal?
    What are the differences?
     
  18. 2NA

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    #18 2NA, Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  19. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    Help me get this thing finished! https://gofund.me/39def36c
    #19 mk e, Sep 26, 2007
    Megasquirt? Really? I'll have to follow this thread and see how it all works out.
     
  20. markcF355

    markcF355 F1 Rookie

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    #20 markcF355, Sep 28, 2007
    Me too.
     

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