The official replica/re-creation thread

Good thing this guy didn't attend your show. He would have surely stolen the Datsun guy's award.
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No. This car would not have been allowed into the event.

You have a good point there Rob. And thank God for Shirley and his real TR. He saved the day at Nationals.

 

now lets wait for the first owner of a genuine pontoon TR (lets say s/n 0666) to cut it up and built it into something that is suppose to look like a 250 GTE.

 

Interesting history that one...

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0666.250TR.htm

 

Not to start some major war, but i do not get how that car was accepted and qualified for numerous major events including Cavallino and 0846 was not...

"chassis rebuilt with parts of 0760"

"destroyed in a garage fire
.. - engine 0724TR (250 TR) installed"


"completely reconstructed"

 

A reconstructed TR with some original parts like so many 'original cars' or what even experts THINK are original cars.

 

Andreas,

I think the atmosphere of a lot of these events has changed so that the vintage guys are completely overpowered by the gold chains croud. Most of these events are no longer about car guys getting together, to discuss which parts cross reference or how to properly set up webbers.

There are still plenty of get togethers, you just have to know where to look.

Regards,

Art S.


PS. 0666 and several others are pushing the bounds of what is called original, maybe more like the homeopathic spirit of the original .

 

because (to use an aircraft phrase) the "design authority" have decreed that 0846 was written off whereas 0666 was also in effect written off but not by the factory.

its unfair, its not particulary relevant, its life

 

I think it also has to do with who the cars owner is. Just like on the concours field, this has a bearing on things. (That's not to praise or dis anyone by the way). Yale

 

This debate has been going on for as long as I have been a mechanic. It is also very much like the situation in many upscale areas of major cities where very fine homes from the 20's, 30's and 40's are being leveled to build a lot consuming 'mcmansion' lacking all of the charm of the previous and drastically changing the looks of the these neighborhoods. I saw an article the other day talking about how the owner of a 'historic' home in Dallas was selling but stipulated in the contract the home could not be torn down by the buyer or drastically altered - this greatly reduced his buyer pool. This may seem like a bland comparison but it goes to the fact that some people just don't care about preservation, either Ferrari's or homes.

The reality is that if you have a 250 GTE in your shop that needs a SUBSTANTIAL amount of work to bring to a proper level and you offer it to buyers as a restoration project or as a rebodied (pick you multimillion dollar Ferrari) you will have 5 time the buyers for the rebody as you will the bring the old girl back buyers. The guys that are interested in the GTE as a GTE, in general, will be the guy who does it in his garage over the coarse of many years with some help on the tough stuff. We have a local guy here in Dallas doing this with a 330 America and he surely deserves a metal and pat on the back from everyone who loves the old stuff. One misconception is that you can rebody a Ferrari for less money than a restoration, in my experience this is far from true. Certainly you can spend hundreds of thousands on a restoration by a top guy like Bob Smith but a rebody of the same level will cost more to do, at least for the ones I have been involved in. I believe that rebodies will continue to be produced until the 250 GTE etc. owners and buyers of the world push the price for these cars to a level that it make no financial sense to use them as a base for a rebody. The chassis of the 250 series is not difficult to fabricate, the oval tubing and all related material are available as well as new castings for many of the engine components. At some point the rebodied vintage Ferrari will be a thing of the past, thankfully, but I think that scratch built reproductions will always be built.

 

Maybe if we wait long enough someone will make a Datsun out of a Ferrari.

 

Please don't judge any car based on what Barchetta says. That site is full of rubbish!!!

 

I opened this debate because converting a good car into a replica is for me the most stupid thing to do as the car is lost forever and all replicas are only a caricature of the real car.
How can an owner be proud of his ugly replica ?? I will never understand. It's like living with a woman with the face demolished by several aesthetic operations.

In my opinion, the discussion about authenticity of real Ferrari would need another thread...

 

thank you, James; I think you are spot on. Unfortunately, I don't think the 2+2s have hit that price point yet. I believe shaughnessy said in a thread here last week that he sold three tired queen mothers to replica builders in the last year alone.

 

Correct, like the Japanese don't care about the future of whales, etc.

As I said the motivation is not "gee it will be cool to have a particular replica", but simply money ... and profits .

Nothing costs more than derusting a car body shell. In the end if it's really rusty you have to make many new panels by hand, but the difference compared to a replica is it must actually be right and fit in with a near 50 year old shell. Making a brand new body on the other hand does not have this issue, because you are starting from scratch.

This will never happen, because a 250GTO (real) keeps getting more expensive and thus the gap between that and a replica is massive. Thus even if a 250GTE was $250,000 that is peanuts compared to a real GTO ... and some people are so selfish and rich that they will destroy anything to have their lot. Some even destroy other people (think sales people that con other people into impossible morgages so they get their bonus ... currently affecting many in America) so a mere car is not going to stand in their way.

Thus this saving of these old important cars will only happen is we all say enough is enough ... and protect them and "discourage" as much as possible pretend Ferrari enthusiasts in doing this. We really need the factory to sue people until they are bankrupt to stop this process ... the only solution IMO, sad but if they don't there will be none left. Even 100 point concours cars will be converted when somebody offers $500,000 for it!
Pete

 

You're on a slippery slope there my friend. We got plenty of litigation going on in this country already. Don't really need more of it.

I think Artvonne explained it best in post #154: We need actually the opposite: Less intervention by FNA. That will allow chassis builders to come out and create replicas on generic chassis. Something that happens for instance with Lamborghinis in the US, because Lamborghini doesn't care. The effect of that is, that original vintage cars don't get molested.

 

You are dealing only with one side of the problem here. People creating replicas that look like **** and make original cars look bad is as big a problem as original cars biting dust. I also think many cars don't get the TLC they would urgently need because people spend their resources on fakes and stuff. I just wish people would go for what they can afford, really!

 

for the company who makes it maybe (same as any company)
but the man who buys it will almost certainly be thinking "gee how cool ...... "

 

I totally agree with Kare. As arrogant as it may possibly sound to some: If you cannot afford the real thing, stay away.
Marcel Massini

 

Well yes, thats the thing. People should know their limitations. If you can't afford a TR, than just accept that. There is no true alternative for the real thing. Especially not sacrifing a (vintage) Ferrari.

 

Amen. You Rob are comfortable with who you are ... others are pretenders and will never be happy.

BTW: Regarding restoration costs versus replica costs, think trim, think trying to locate rare interior parts that have gone missing, think glass, think also that the car has to be restored 100% right because it could be shown. To restore a 250GTE properly is every bit as expensive as restoring a 275GTB ... hence why creating a replica is cheaper (no trim, doesn't have to be perfect, no glass, no show to worry about because owner too embarrassed to go any where but the local Starbucks, etc.) ... note I did not say cheap, but cheaper.

And yes Tifosi12 why not just make the chassis ... the answer is these pretenders want to believe they actually still own a REAL Ferrari, they don't IMO, they only a poor quality bitsa with no relevant history. There are some good bitsa cars, but these are at the bottom of the pile. There is no other reason why the chassis cannot be made ... especially in Australia and New Zealand. I do not know the laws in the USA though.
Pete

 

im gobsmacked at that comment.
its got to be one of the most unreal things ive ever read.


in my eyes part of the magic of the human race is our ability to increase our limits, overcome obstacles and basically evolve.
if we all simply knew our limitations and left it at that our species would stagnate

 

Interesting, reading the vehemence with which some folks view this issue. At least on this thread, I seem to be in the minority. Perhaps there are others who fear to express the other view?? This is how it seems to me: Cars are just tangible possessions. It seems crazy to me that cars--transportation, no matter how neat--can command such prices. Lord knows I have had my share of Ferraris, but I was priced out of the market years ago, and may never own another unless its a 308. I'd be a little miffed, but how can one be mad at the law of supply and demand? Still, if I had a couple of hundred thou to spend on a car (JUST a car!) would I buy a 250GTE, or spring just a bit more for a TR or GTO replica? Why would I roll around, sliding off the seat, plowing into the corner with a nose-heavy car, when I could play boy-racer with a replicar? Sure, it probably wouldn't be 100% accurate, but who cares? I wouldn't be trying to fool anyone, just trying to have a good time. And isn't that what it's about, having a good time driving? I wouldn't be killing an invaluable art object, as someone already took a donor that was a used-up piece of junk anyway. Yes, most of the replicars are built on a chassis that belonged to an otherwise unsalvageable hulk. If I did own such a car, I would drive it as much as possible, and would hope that you would respect my preference enough to refrain from trying to guilt me. So, to conclude, live and let live, or to each his own ( I love cliches!). Uncle Enzo, no matter how successful he was, is not God, and the products he made to support his racing are not pages from the scripture. Just cars to drive.

 

Why not buy a 330GTC (the one with the independent rear suspension) ... don't think I have the name right.

This is what we are trying to say, buy a car that gives you "what you are looking for" right out of the box ... heck it might be a Mazda Miata (MX5). You do not have to own a replica Ferrari to play boy racer ...
Pete