How is your P4 knowledge?

It could be the case. 0856 and 0858 were similar at that time not to say identical. Was your picture showing the 0856 and 0858 tails drying outside the factory building after Le Mans 1967 and before the barchetta conversions of the cars? (I believe so)

 

I think just before Le Mans as the Yellow Stripped car at the Forecourt Fuel station was shot at the same time. The spyder tails were being readied for Brands the last Race of 67.

 

Not quite the photo we're looking for, but here's one that I just came across in the 15th December 1966 issue of Auto Italiana ....

.... taken at 0846's press unveiling. Note the absence of rear corner spoilers ....
(as the car later appeared at Daytona for the Firestone-sponsored practice sessions)
.... and the positioning of PROVA MO-36 centrally on the narrow panel between the 'rubba-hook' catches.

(Please excuse the lousy quality of the scan - photo was also spread across the page join).
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Very Interesting. Looks Like "PROVA-MO,36" ??? I wonder if it was moved LH by the time of the race??

Best

 

Here’s an interesting little poser for the P4ophiles and modellers amongst you – to which I now know the answer.

Someone (building a P4 replica) emailed me, less than a week ago, asking the (slightly edited) question:

"08xx has the battery in the rear by the spare wheel, and 0856 I do not see the battery.
Do you know where the right location is ?"

0856 has always been taken as the 'gold standard' for originality for Ferrari P4’s ….
But occasionally, it too, has been photographed with a battery mounted on the rear panel between the exhaust tailpipes.

Both (412P’s) #0850 and #0854 and Jim’s P3/4 have it located there, too, nowadays.

But where is the correct (original) location for the a P4’s (or 412P's) battery ?
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Did it run with an onboard battery? I'm not quite sure.

 

In 24 Hour races with lights ablaze ? I think it did, Wouter.

 

Ahead of the left rear wheel in the sill sponson?

Gramps

 

No. Sorry, Gary.

 

Oops, silly me...

In the front in de compartiment just underneath the windscreen? I think somewhere between the four wheels for weight and safety reasons.
At the pessengers feet?

 

Also, think about the (old traditional) Le Mans starts, which were still used in 1967 ....
.... and for all the other races, for that matter - apart from Daytona, which was a rolling start.

You're more on the right track, Wouter.

I've been given two slight variations - both from equally reputable sources:
1) Either vertically, behind the passenger seat, or ....
2) Laid flat, under the passenger seat squab, butted up against the transverse chassis tube which runs under the seat.

Both of these locations would obviously neccessitate the use of a very slim-line Varley type (dry) racing battery.

 

Then obviously they used a different kind of battery to the ones which are located in the back section of the car.

 

Some Daytona 67 photos here...

http://www.scuderia.cc/david-castelhano-collection/1967-24h-daytona/default.htm

 

Yes, agreed - probably the best selection of original B&W photos from the 1967 Daytona 24 Hours that you'll find online anywhere ....

Courtesey of and copyright David Castelhano © (a.k.a. 'Bertocchi' on FerrariChat).

The photo which I had included in my post #8 on the previous page ....
(showing the rear views of #0846, in front of #0856, over the roof of #0844)
.... is the upper part of image #4 from that gallery selection, blown up slightly:

http://www.scuderia.cc/david-castelhano-collection/1967-24h-daytona/0844-0856-1.html

 

I don't know why - usual mechanical problems? - but at least one P4 changed the engine before the race. There is a photo on p.44 of 'Ferrari In Camera' that shows the mechanics lifting the V12 out of a coupe with a length of scaffold pole and some rather hefty rope.
Nathan

 

This is in reference to someone who has contacted Paul claiming that at Le Mans in 67 0856 was not the car with the yellow stripe but the car that finished 2nd. Basically that 0856 was 0858 in that race with switched chassis plates. My point is that the original Le Mans Documents I have don't support that as the Yellow Stripped Car is listed as having engine # 0856 on the Scrutinizing documents and the 2nd place car as having motor 0858.

Why would have Ferrari switched both the chassis plates and the engines for that race? The documents that imply that the chassis plates were switched for that race have never been posted and if they are I'll be happy to post the relevant section of the documents I have.

There is evidence that Ferrari did switch chassis plates at different times but I'm not sure that this was one of them and I really can't understand why they would have switched 0856 and 0858 but if there's evidence that that occurred I'd be interested in seeing it and for what it's worth will post a scan of the Le Mans documents I have upon the posting of those documents.

As an aside IMO the photo doesn't prove an engine was swapped only that one was removed or put back. The same one could have been removed, serviced, and put back or a spare could have been swapped in but either way the documents I have show an engine stamped # 0856 was in the Yellow Stripped Car.

 

Which is why I wrote "at least one P4 changed (notice I did not say 'swapped') the engine before the race". Just showing that an engine swap could have happened, and that at least some engine change occurred. But I can't tell from the photo which car it was or which engine but some engine change happened.
Nathan

 

Can you show us that picture? Then we are able to determine which car it is.

 

IIRC, That same photo was also included in a P4 photo gallery at: http://www.feeling43.com/

It doesn't however give any indication which car it was being removed from - or fitted to ....
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In fact, Jay Felter had already explained his claims, in full, on page 2 of that same thread, in posts #21 through #23.

See: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127742&page=2

Apologies, to both parties, for my having missed reading these, previously ....

 

The engine could have been going into any of these cars.

Reading Left to Right:

#20 P3/4 spyder 0846
#21 330P4 0858 (or 0856)
#19 330P4 0860
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I am going to throw this in just for kicks.

While at the factory picking up a BB/LM I went thru the "Racing records book with Florini. I was intersted in the 412s and P4 historys. I just looked up my notes. The information I copied from the book states. At Lemans Ferrari 0856 carried number 21, and the The race book has all the history of the race as recorded by the ferrari race team. I am sure everyone has heard of these books.

 

The question that I think Jay still hasn't answered is why would the chassis plates and the engines both have been switched as my documents definitely show engine 0856 in the 24 car and engine 0858 in the 21 car...

 

The answer is in Jay's post #23 in that previous thread, Jim:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136209765&postcount=23

 

The documents I have are original scrutinising documents and clearly list the engine#/ Drivers/ race # among many other identifying items. They were filled in by the scrutineer at Le Mans in 67. These documents clearly list 0856 as #24 and 0858 as 21.

Best