The official replica/re-creation thread

Andreas: I TOTALLY disagree. My experience is a totally different one. I go to Ferrari and historic events since 35 years, almost every weekend, year by year, all over the world. In 2007 alone I have met at least ten (10) drivers/owners of replica Ferraris that have categorically refused to tell the s/n of their "cars" or to open the hood. This happens all the time. People are NOT honest and are pure posers. Even at Monterey in August 2007 I experienced that again. Yes, even in America. Not just in Europe! And not just at the Ollon-Villars hillclimb Revival in Switzerland a few weeks ago, an event which (again) was full of replicas. I also suggest to have a look at the thread "Drogo 250" (Vintage section, post #1) where there is information and photos about a replica. Said owner, even after 17 years of ownership, still claims his car is a real one and not a replica.............it is endless, some guys just don't get it. These people really think we are all stupid and idiots. We aren't! Guys, wake up! Stop destroying more historic Ferraris. 250 GTO, 250 TR: again, if you can't afford a real one, stay away. I cannot afford the Mona Lisa painting (she's in Paris, normally). But that doesn't mean that I will hang a copy on my wall. I can always travel to Paris and visit the real one. Same for 250 GTOs or 250 TRs. All you have to do is jump into the next plane and go to the right event.
Marcel Massini

 

First let me say this: People who pretend a replica is real are lying idiots. They're just pathetic. They're even criminals because they pass a forgery off as real. They should be prosecuted and put in jail. Not for the replica, but for lying about it.

I think the reason for the difference in our experiences is down to what kind of events we're talking about. I'm talking about the happy go lucky car show on Sunday afternoon at the local Hooters where the trophy is a $ 10 plastic cup. You are probably talking about some high stakes event in Switzerland or elsewhere. I can see how those folks could be defensive and lie through their third teeth. That is pathetic and I fully understand your rage. But to me that is on a different level. That's like faking a Van Gogh. Something only an expert like you could detect. Fraud basically.

 

We are agree, A real Ferrari must to come out the Ferrari Factory.
I took also the exemple of Mona Lisa, i can t imagine her with Prada glasses


It will be very nice to create a thread, put only the fake, better for many people -Me too- to reconize them easier.

 

Andreas: I am aware that you live (as a Swiss) for quite some time now in USA. That's really great. But I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between people in America (I didn't say Americans) and people in Europe (I didn't say Europeans). The mentality is a different one, big time. My experience tells me that in America people open hoods of their cars easier and quicker than in Europe. If you come back to Europe and go to events over here you will find out. Not just in Switzerland.
And let's face it: When you come to a traffic signal and see an AC Cobra on the other side of the light waiting. The FIRST thing that comes to your mind, instantly, is: It must be a replica. Simply because you cannot seriously expect to see a real one. It is THAT BAD already. Actually it is way too late. There must be ten times as many replicas today than real ones. This is NO FUN.
Marcel Massini

 

Easy : all replicas are UGLY...

 

but i fall looking a 250Tr picture...i comming old what you want.

 

I understand your argument of the dilution and it is true, that all the AC Cobra replicas have caused that. But they're not the only reason: The other half (if not more) of the argument is, that nobody in his right mind would be driving the real thing on a public road. It is just too risky.

A similar argument can be made in the US for the Ford GT40 and sadly for the Daytona Spyder. There are a few around in our town, but you would never see them being driven. That is a sad reality.

 

the difference is that a painting is for looking at.
you might get more pleasure looking at the real one, but a good copy should give a lot of pleasure.

a car is for driving, yes you can view it at the "right event" but you cant drive it.




i really can see where your coming from marcel, but i cant agree with your viewpoint being so strict.
i'd never condone a recreation being made from a viable example but i personally would rather see a gto/tr recreated phoenix like from the ashes of a wrecked 250 gte than see that car lost to us forever (in any format)

 

The problem is the money. Everybody thinks they can make (more) money. It's about ethics. One would have to be a REAL enthusiast to properly repair, reconstruct and restore a badly damaged 250 GTE or 250 GT PF Coupé back into original configuration, rather than to use it as a donor car for some stupid replica. How many people in the (greater) Ferrari world have the honest will to do that, no matter what it takes and how much the value of the car is/will be once completed? Very very few people will do that, unfortunately. Spending huge $$$ for restoration of a wrecked 250 GTE is not masochism, it is pure passion and love.

As for "driving a replica", HOW can it be a pleasure when you always know that you are actually sitting in a fake and not in the real thing? Cheating yourself?

Marcel Massini

 

and spending the same or more on a recreation isnt ?
yes i agree that a lot of these have been made for profit - but i suspect some have been labours of love too.

as i recall the owners of real gto's/tr's have had recreations commissioned.

the fact is that if done right then aside from monetary value you would be sat in what looks, feels, sounds, drives like a real gto/tr and and to me its about the driving experience - a car is and always will be for driving, and the recreation should give the right feelings.

if i had a gto or tr then id want to be able to use it, i wouldnt simply trailer it to pebble beach or goodwood revival.
owning a car isnt about taking it to shows - if thats what ppl think then i feel sorry for them.



btw you never answered my question.
if a 250 gte is crashed/burnt to the point its not a viable restoration project is there any harm in making a good and accurate recreation of a "better" ferrari from it or would you rather see it stripped of useable parts and then the remains destroyed and lost forever ?

 

Here you go Art, no vintage Farrari dies in this production:

http://www.p4norwood.com/p4_V126.htm

Let me add, that it is about the same price as the TR peplica that this thread was about originally...if I had the buck, the Norwood P4 would be pretty high on the list.

 

No matter how much $$$ someone spends on a replica it will ALWAYS remain a replica. Nobody cares because it is a fake. And nothing else.

The looks will never be correct.
Feels like a real GTO/TR??? How can it "feel" like a real GTO when you sit in a fake??? Fooling yourself?
Drives like a real GTO/TR? Have you ever driven a real one? I have driven three in the past 25 years (3705 GT, 3589 GT and 4219 GT).

I never said such a thing. There are plenty of places where real 250 GTOs are driven. Go to the Modena Cento Ore Classic (Bamford's GTOs) or to the Goodwood Revival (Bamford's, etc.) or to the Tour Auto (Brandon Wang's 4219 GT) or to the Hamilton Tour in England (Vestey's) or to the 45th Anniversary event of the 250 GTOs late October of this year. Many owners drive their cars. A friend of mine and 250 GTO owner even picked me up at an U.S. airport with his (genuine) 250 GTO and since I arrived with a rather big Samsonite suitcase we had some problems due to lack of room. Fortunately his wife had also come, with a second car, a genuine Alfa Romeo 8C Monza. That's where we placed the suitcase then. What followed was a 2 hour drive from the airport to his house. I will never forget this.
Marcel Massini

 

i think your deliberately missing the point now.

why not, if the real deal can be rebodied correctly then why not a recreaction ?

if the instruments, seat, wheel, driving position are all correct then it will feel like the real thing.
again i think your deliberately missing the point.

good for you.
however several of these recreations have been made for the owners of the real thing.
if they think it drives right then maybe you havent really got a leg to stand on when it comes to saying it wouldnt drive like a real one.

at the end of the day these arent complicated cars - any good modern restorer with experience of the real thing should in theory be able to build a recreation that will look, feel and drive like the real thing.

again i say good for you.
i however am not on first name terms with any gto owners (and its likely that 99% of ppl on here arent either)
ive seen 3 x gto's on the road (3729, 3757 & 3767) and 1 x tr (0752) - all real, and every one a memorable experience (especially following Jack Sears in 3729 for around 20 miles in Oxfordshire shortly before he sold her)

but the fact remains that these cars are often stuck in museums and rarely driven in anger.

besides my point was that you said "go and see one at a relevant show" and i feel they are designed to be driven and we regular ppl simply wont get the opportunity to drive one.


i also note that you have STILL avoided the question
here it is again just to jog your memory

"if a 250 gte is crashed/burnt to the point its not a viable restoration project is there any harm in making a good and accurate recreation of a "better" ferrari from it or would you rather see it stripped of useable parts and then the remains destroyed and lost forever ? "

 

This has been already discussed many many times.

1) they make the original cars look bad.
2) they use up rare spare parts that would be needed to keep the real cars going.

I would rather see them go than haunt us as messed up mongrels!

 

What about recreations like the Norwood P4? Pretty much built from scratch and as near as I can tell there are no Ferrari markings on them? I don't know if the TRs he did are the same or whether he used a donor car.

 

You consider Ferrari's 'just' cars. An object meant for transportation. Perhaps an object meant for luxureus, fast and high end transportation, but transportation none the less. Yes, such an object can be recreated. If you get all the parts right, the sum of those parts would mean the way of transportation will be the same or all most the same as the object of transportation that on which it is based.

Now, take this point of view to the art world: Let's repaint the Mona Lisa. Go out of your way to recreate the paint Michelangelo used in his days. Study his methods and make them your own. Chances are, any talented painter that puts his mind, money and effort in it, could recreate the Mona Lisa to a level most people wouldn't know the difference. They would perhaps only sense that something is wrong because the recreation is shown outside of The Louvre. But at the end of the day it is a FAKE and therefor WORTHLESS in a world that also has the original.

You obviously believe that a Ferrari is just a car (again an object or transportation) and therefor not to be compared with art, but that is exactly where our points of view differ. I do consider Ferrari's (or vintage Ferrari's at least) art. Sure, they can be put to use as well, but that doesn't disqualify them from being art. They are a result of creative energy and of the work of extremely skilled craftsmen.

So, yes, given all the correct recreated parts and a skilled technician, you perhaps could put together something that quite a few people would consider a genuine TR or 250 GTO or whatever, but at the end of the day it is a FAKE and therefor WORTHLESS in a world that also has the original. It doesn't even matter whether or not the drivingexperience comes close to that of the original.

If you (or anybody else) would make do with a fake, then so be it, but to me recreation should be avoided. There are so many things in this world that are fake, trying to look like something else, devaluating the real thing in the process.

 

There is a company in Canada that build Porsche recreations (Intermecanica) That actualy builds a much better car than the original 356 Convertible D...By better, I mean, faster, butter balanced, better handling...They have not diminshed the value of Real Convertible Ds and are not badged Porsche. I fail to see why a similar situation could not exist for Ferrari replicas.

 

Wow this thread was busy while I was out driving the convertible. A perfect drive!


Try attacking these rights.

Freedom of speach.

Freedom of religion.

Civil rights.

Abyone out there want to start attacking?



OK. Now try this one.

Property rights.



Get my point. It is not wrong even if we prefer it not happen.

Now if it were wrong we would have laws that would state as much. Would we not?

So anyone want to spearhead the change?


Until that time I will defend anyones property rights. Mine, yours and theirs. Even if it's unpopular.



I also wish buyers would find one already done. Its not like they are hard to find.


Good day and good night.

 

poseur, noun - a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not.

Is a poseur someone who loves to maintain and drive his "recreation/fake" or some nouveau rich guy who trailers his newly purchased, fully restored Ferrari to Cavallino Classics not knowing a damn thing about the car, pretending to be a "car guy"?

I am the proud owner of a California SWB recreation/rebody/replica/fake/whatever and I am also a true car guy. I originally entered the world of Ferraris with the intent to restore a badly damaged Daytona (cut coupe #13341). I was the guest of Ted Rutland to Cavallino in 2003 and was completely disappointed by some of the fellow Daytona owners who knew little about their cars. They paid to have them restored, paid to have them trailered and even paid to have them cleaned! One guy didn't even know that his engine had 4 cams!?!! These guys were the definition of a poseur -- posing as a car enthusiast!

While restoring the Daytona, I came across an ad for my dream car -- the 250 SWB California Spyder. I fell in love with this car when my father brought home a book about Ferraris -- inside was a picture of a silvery-blue open headlight SWB with red interior (Carrick's car I believe). The fact that my new car was a rebody made by Allegretti on 365 GT 2+2 chassis (SN 12313) didn't bother me in the least -- it was 1/10th the price of the real thing. Even if I had $2m to spend on a car, I would never be comfortable actually driving the dam thing on the road. Plus, the all aluminum body was a pure work of art compared to the crude steel fabrication done by Scaglietti on the Daytona.

I drove the car for more than a year all over Atlanta and then took the engine out (myself) for a rebuild. Fortunately, I found local Ferrari mechanic who has 30 years experience rebuilding all types of Ferrari engines and was willing to take on a new customer who actually wanted to get grease under his fingernails. My first restoration was my first car (a '69 TR-6). I've learned a great deal more by working on two Ferraris and have loved every minute of it.

My "fake" is still a Ferrari -- it just has a different skin on it. Was it made by the factory or some restorer years later -- who gives a F@#% -- it's an absolute blast to drive. It's all an aluminum body with IRS, 5 speed gearbox and larger engine than the original 250's. It's fast, it's fun and it's a Ferrari! It's probably more true to Enzo's philosophy than many of the over-restored originals I've seen.

Am I straight up about the car? -- you bet. I tell everyone the story about how it was built and they love it. Every Ferrari owner I've ever met gives me a big "thumbs up" for having the balls to drive what I enjoy. Does it devalue the original? Hardly. My car doesn't qualify for the "exclusive" shows where you get to "pose" with your car. My car is just a fun car to own and to drive. I love giving the "average joe" a chance to see a vintage V-12 in action. Isn't driving the car what its all about? Hopefully "collecting" and "history" hasn't overshadowed the original reason these cars were created.

I'm a car guy, pure and simple. I love working on them. I love restoring them. I love driving them. If that makes me a poseur by some people's definition, then so be it.

-mike

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I was at the 2004 FCA national meet. Saw a 375MM that had come out of a lengthy and expensive restoration. Asked the owner whether his engine had distributors or magnetos. He said he wasn't sure.

I personally don't give a rat's turd if this fellow's real car gets devalued because there are too many replicas. What I do care about is that I become desensitized to 250GTO's and 427 Cobras, because I see so darn many of them-- 90 percent fake. The magic cannot help but to diminish.

 

mikegt,

Your California recreation kicks azz! If I found a beat up 250GT or something similar, I would turn it into what was done to yours. Don't let the naysayers get you down. I love your car!

 

My pleasure. Freedom always comes in a package with responsibility. It is also interesting to note that the groups that make strongest claims over freedom of speech are concidered serious threats to our society these days. Other claims IMO not worth a comment.

 

Totally agreed.
Marcel Massini

 

the comparison with art (well say a Picasso or Chagall) comes very close. There are more fakes than real ones, the ones with the fakes claimes they love the image, the real one's don't care, they either don't know anything about them or they see the value increasing everyday and they keep them in a vault. But there are also quite some that have the real thing and know it, show it and use it...
Unfortunately there are too little of them........but mainly in Europe??
oscar

 

I am the proud owner of a California SWB recreation/rebody/replica/fake/whatever and I am also a true car guy. I originally entered the world of Ferraris with the intent to restore a badly damaged Daytona (cut coupe #13341). I was the guest of Ted Rutland to Cavallino in 2003 and was completely disappointed by some of the fellow Daytona owners who knew little about their cars. They paid to have them restored, paid to have them trailered and even paid to have them cleaned! One guy didn't even know that his engine had 4 cams!?!! These guys were the definition of a poseur -- posing as a car enthusiast!

While restoring the Daytona, I came across an ad for my dream car -- the 250 SWB California Spyder. I fell in love with this car when my father brought home a book about Ferraris -- inside was a picture of a silvery-blue open headlight SWB with red interior (Carrick's car I believe). The fact that my new car was a rebody made by Allegretti on 365 GT 2+2 chassis (SN 12313) didn't bother me in the least -- it was 1/10th the price of the real thing. Even if I had $2m to spend on a car, I would never be comfortable actually driving the dam thing on the road. Plus, the all aluminum body was a pure work of art compared to the crude steel fabrication done by Scaglietti on the Daytona.

Good for you Mike! I'm with you all the way.