What should Ferrari's penalty be?

Shouldn't Ferrari be rewarded because they are the only team that ran 2 different sets of tires in the race.

 

Absolutely correct.

The whole "we didnt get the email" think is so bogus that I'm surprised anyone is buying it. Todt is sly and shrewd and has no issues bending the rules to his favor. You could tell from the post race conference that nobody was buying it - they were floundering and looking for excuses and the reporters were obviously not fooled. One report I heard was that a representative of the FIA was going around telling people the same thing. Todt wanted to get off on a technicality "oh but it says we must be notified and we didnt know about it, and we were never asked to sign something like we usually are". Its BS. Todt knew, but the team figured if the rain stopped, they would be a full pit stop ahead of all the others. It was a blatant attempt to get around the FIA order to gain an advantage. I dont blame them for trying, but the fact that it blew up in their face IMO does not mean they should get away with it.

Did they gain an advantage? Clearly not. But haven't we seen that an advantage does not necessarily need to be obviously gained to require a penalty?

Loss of WCC points from this race (wont affect the outcome an will really just make a statement) and a fine - $100k - would be appropriate. The FIA should act on this if for no other reason than to show clearly they are not biased. Everyone thinks they are anyway, but they have to at least appear not to be.

 

+1

Problem is, that Mosley is best buddies with Todt, so they get away with it.

What's even more scary is the thought, that Todt is considering to take over after Mosley retires. Imagine Todt as president of the FIA. They might as well hand the title to Ferrari before the season.

 

Zoom
It is doubtful that Ferrari could have raced
on the intermediate tyres from lap 20

Ferrari started the Japanese Grand Prix on intermediate tyres today and were soon called in to take on full wet tyres as it had been announced that all competitors must start the Fuji event on the full wets if the start were to take place behind the safety car.

As a result, Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa dropped from third and fourth on track, to the back of the field. They would later battle back to finish third and sixth respectively.

Ferrari state that they did not receive this correspondence via email until after the start of the 67-lap event and were therefore penalised unfairly.

The following is a press release from the FIA.

"A communication from the Stewards requiring all competitors to fit extreme wet-weather tyres for safety reasons was sent to all teams by email at 12:35 hrs local time today. Save for Scuderia Ferrari, all competitors have confirmed that they received the email at 12:37 hrs.

"It is understood that Scuderia Ferrari did not receive the email at the same time as other competitors. As a result, Scuderia Ferrari was the only team which did not start on extreme wet-weather tyres.

"The 2007 Formula One Sporting Regulations (Art. 15.
1) state that in exceptional circumstances Stewards or Race Director may give instructions to Competitors by means of special circulars in accordance with the Code and these circulars will be distributed to all competitors who must acknowledge receipt.

"At a meeting of the Formula One Sporting Working Group held in Monaco on 7th December 2006, all teams agreed to an electronic distribution system to ensure that all competitors received communications simultaneously, with no time advantage for a team by virtue of their location in the pit lane. This system has been used throughout the current championship year.

"To avoid any recurrence of today's problem the agreed method of using electronic communications will continue to be used but in future will be backed up by the traditional method of written communication."

Earl ALEXANDER
© CAPSIS International

 

If it is verified that Ferrari broke the rules, then they should be fined/ punished for that violation.

The safety car would leave the track and when racing picked up, the loss in lap times would be clear.

Does a child believe there is a man in the moon? Believing might be a little strong. Thinking or hoping might be more fitting.

Again there isn't any proof of that and why would any F1 team, so close to losing the Championship take such a huge risk with such a large chance of getting caught? It makes no sense.

 

I like the term Toad.

I hope it won't happen. The position needs somebody who knows F1, but it shouldn't be a former team manager. Briatore and Stoddart have been mentioned in the same context. Stoddart I could imagine, but not Flavio nor Toad. Even if they had no bias, any decision would still smell of it.

 

The same company who forgot to put gasoline in one of their cars in Hungary?

 

ohw come on. It would be plain to see for every team that Ferrari would be running on illegal tires. And if they got an advantage out of it, it would surely be out in the open quite soon. Ron Dennis would be running over to Charlie at the first given opportunity and rightfully so. So how could Ferrari ever believe they were going to get away with it?

But no, since some people are biased against Ferrari and/or against either or both drivers and that they 'believe' the story of not getting the message through email (which is very easy to detect) is total BS, Ferrari are cheating. Based upon fact? Certainly not. And then there is the old song of FIA operating in favor of Ferrari. Based upon fact? Certainly not.

I can't believe how much this forum has turned against the Ferrari team of today and against it's drivers. I do not mind the team and its drivers to be critisized, but as soon it is no longer necessary the base statements upon facts, the whole debate is lost.

It is a pity Rob let's this section of Ferrarichat slide down as much as it has. Really dissapointing.

 

The same company who awaited Eddie Irvine in his queste for the Championship of 1999 with three new wheels in stead of four...

 

why do you disagree with the fine? Removing WCC points would be purely symbolic - adding a fine would give it a little bit of teeth. Also, McLaren lost WCC points and suffered a $50k fine for the transmission issue, did they not? Seems the precedent has been set and arguably Ferraris transgression is worse, as McLaren made a judgement call that offered them no real advantage and by appearances it was an honest mistake, whereas Ferrari appear to have been acting in an underhanded way and if it had worked, would have given them a tremendous advantage.

 

Ferrari were penalized. They had to come in during the SC fiasco and it put them in the back of the grid.

The stewards probably did SF a favor as they couldn't keep the cars on the track. They would have crashed taking themselves and ohters out of the race in all probability.

A monetary fine would be in order. It was a safety violation. I do not believe they will deduct any points and I agree with that.

My solution for McLarengate was to have the drivers start at the back of the grid for as many races as they had the info and did not report it. Of course, this would have cost Lewis the WDC so they punished the team by taking away their WCC points and a $100 million fine NET of their "earnings" for the money they would have received had they been allowed to keep their points.

 

+1

This is what I believe too much fuss about nothing.

A silly gamble a mistake in its self though.

 

On the contrary, your point above is why it makes sense at all. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Ferrari NEEDED to be 1-2 for all races the rest of the year, and if that happened and Lewis finished behind Alonso once or twice, Kimi would win the WDC. They NEEDED to be 1-2. They qualified behind the McLarens. They knew they were slower. They were going to start on intermediates. The teams knew the race would begin behind the safety car - logic would follow that they were going to use the cars to dry the track some, then go green. At the point they went green, assuming the rain was not heavy, there would be a drying line forming on the track. All competitors would have to come in and change to intermediates. But Ferrari, already on Intermediates, would have a full pit-stop advantage - around 40 seconds. Thats HUGE. The email came to start on full wets. Someone pointed out that it was not done in the 'official' manner and nobody had signed for anything, so they took a chance to go out on the intermediates. If they were not caught, they win. If they were caught, they just pass it off as 'oh we didnt get the message'. It was a win-win. Sure it was a risk, but it was one they HAD to take because they MUST MUST MUST win every race with a 1-2 finish to have a hope of clinching the WDC.

I have no doubt in my mind that if they were 10 points haead in the WDC, that the Ferraris would have started on full wets. Its like a football team going for a run-in instead of taking the extra point - its not a great chance of success but if it works you win big. And when your options start getting limited, you have to take those chances if you want to win.

 

Thats not a penalty - thats the result of your gamble going wrong. That is entirely seperate from a penalty. Lets say we assume that no Ferrari parts were used in the McLaren of this year. So McLaren gained no advantage, and the bad press they got was surely hurtful to them. So... that should be the end of it? Not according to the FIA. An advantage does not have to be gained in order for a penalty to be imposed. The mere act of attempting to circumvent the rules or acting contrary to the spirit of competition is enough to warrant a penalty. Intent comes into play also - in 99 they had no bad intent with their illegal bodywork and gained no advantage. An "honest mistake". Thats clear because there is no way they could have gained from bodywork that made the cars slower. But in this case, intent is the other way - it seems clear their intent was to get an illegal advantage and cover it up with "Oh we didnt know". They are trying to make out that it was an honest mistake, but were they correct in their gamble, it would have paid off huge.

Yep, they bet on red and it came up black. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized if the money they were gambling with was counterfeit. The penalty and the outcome are two very seperate things, IMO.

 

Apparently the Fuji race stewards met until late last night, determined Ferrari did not receive the e-mail until after the race started, and that from now on both an e-mail and a signature on a manual form will be required in circumstances such as we witnessed in Japan.

Massa actually went to the grid on extremes, Kimi on inters. The decision was made on the grid in front of the world for Massa to be changed to inters as it appeared the rain was slowing. No one complained as one would think would happen. Remember, there are race officials walking the grid until the actual start. Certainly the other teams just figured Ferrari was going to shoot themselves in the foot.

(autosport)

Looks like we are running out of interesting threads in this section?

 

How long did McLaren use the transmission? How large were the benefits of using the transmission?

Two totally different situations. The comparisons are weak.

You say McLaren made a judgement call. A call to deceive the rules. You say they gained no advantage, how can you prove that? How can you back up you claim of "an honest mistake"? How can you say Ferrari acted underhandedly? How can you say "if it worked, theu WOULD have gain a huge advantage"?

Even if the Ferrari cars were allowed to run, I think they would have lost many positions and several seconds a lap.

The adjectives you used to describe Ferrari and McLaren can be used in any post depending on who you support. You have no evidence of anything yet you beat your chest.

McLaren have been found guilty of breaking the rules. - Fact

McLaren have been punished for each time they broke the rules and were caught. Fact

None of us on this board know for certain if Ferrari broke any rule in Fuji. Fact

 

Ferrari didn't need 1-2 finishes over the last 3 races. There are numerous situations where Ferrari could have won the season before the Fuji race took place.

You list off your "reasons" in a run-on sentence as if coming up with a short story idea.

There are waayy too many what-if's, mayby's and could-have-been's in your post for it to mean anything. You could be on the right track but to say that's what happened is delusional, wait for an investigation, if there is one and then you can know what happened.

P.S. You email part is dead wrong. At least know the rules before you claim that someone broke them, sheesh.

 

Why do you come to Ferrarichat and spew your biased bull$hit?

Why not go to the McLaren-chat website and bash Ferrari there?

Are you here to piss people off in the Ferrari community?

Or are you simply here to make false alligations against an automobile manufacturer whose cars you can't afford?