Barn find Bizzarrini

Here 206, photos given to me by Chris Lakner
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Hi all,
I just found this period shot by accident whilst looking on the web for carburetor parts!
Cheers
Nick
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Do you have good photos to show which include chassis number ?
When the pseudo will show their real name, may be some members will take them seriously.
How many times, they have meet Giotto for diner ?
The way that Bizzarrini built his cars is not a mystery for people who known him correctly.
All the italians cars are not built in order by chassis number, why ? I don t known.
Everybody known that for exemple BO 222 was restamped by Bizzarrini as IA3 222 to sale it as a road car.( car for sale for 1.2 million euro )
Bizzarrini have built cars and after have stamped a chassis number with no chronologique sens.
Exemple, Bizzarrini 340 was registered in France in Mai 1968, but cars with chassis number below 340 was not built at this time !
Why ? No idea and I ve meet Giotto many many times and Giotto even come to stay in my house in Cannes 10 years ago.

Now, let s go back with good posts and good photos with clear facts and not supposed conspiracy !
BO 206 ..photos from Lakner
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Thanks for the #0202 photos. The same car at Le Mans Classic in 2004. Somebody could tell the owner that the blue and red stripes are wrong on his car. The two colors are inverted. Compare with photos from Sebring 1964...
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I don't know if I should be getting into all this or not - I'll probably regret it...

I want to be perfectly open about things. My name is Chris Lackner, mentioned in an earlier post as some kind of "character witness"! I formed the (very small!) Iso Bizzarrini Club in the UK in 1988, and have been running it ever since. I do not own, nor have ever owned a Bizzarrini, and sadly, will probably never have the wherewithal to do so. However, I do own a nice early Iso Grifo 7-Litre (London Show car 1968) which is well known in these circles here in the UK, having been regularly seen at Italian car events since the restoration was finished in 1994. It has also been displayed twice at the Goodwood Festival of Speed, winning its class in the Cartier in 2004. I also currently own a late Iso Fidia, the only one I know of with a factory electric sunroof. This still has plenty of room for improvement, though I do drive it. It is pleasingly original. I have also owned Rivoltas and a Lele in the past.

For many years now, I have been compiling information and amassing images of all the Isos and Bizzarrinis I come across, and I suppose I have become something of an unofficial archivist for the Iso and Bizzarrini marques. I am passionately interested in getting at the truth about these enigmatic machines. Discovering the truth is the only thing that matters to me - that, and an abiding admiration for the cars themselves and the people who created them, and of course, all the friendships I have made along the way.

Now, I am the first person to admit that I am far from knowing everything about the subject - I don't believe anybody can. We all know different things! But we can all help each other to discover more. There are several people in the Iso & Bizzarrini world who I listen to ost carefully when they have something to say. One of these is eckos1. This gentleman's knowledge I have the utmost respect for, and suffice to say, has been "on the scene" even longer than I have - he is a multiple Iso & Bizzarrini owner, and a true enthusiast. If he prefers to remain anonymous, that is his affair. It is not my way, but I respect his decision. I suspect that I probably know velocetwo as well - he seems pretty clued-up...

Recently, I joined FerraiChat.com because of this thread, and the great pictures that are being posted on it. Incidentally, they are all going into the archives under the relevant chassis numbers, where known!
However, I am saddened by the sniping and personal insults that are starting to appear, which have blighted other forums in the past, including the Iso & Bizzarrini one. I believe rudeness comes much more easily when people are communicating in this way, rather than face to face.

Of course, when members are DEALING in cars, the stakes get higher for them, as these days rather large amounts of money can be involved. Dealers can be true enthusiasts too - Brian Classic & Gregor Fisken spring to mind, but I am always somewhat cautious when I am told "facts" by a seller...

With Bizzarrinis, things are complicated by the large number of fakes out there. Whereas the "thoroughbred" marques like Ferrari are generally thoroughly researched by historians, and continue to be so, much less is commonly known about Isos and Bizzarrinis by prospective collectors, and it is all to easy to be taken in by a skillful fake, and end up seriously burned. I've been fooled myself on more than one occasion!

For instance, Giotto Bizzarrini himself has built a number of cars since 1970, more than many people would think. As these were made after period, that is, after the factory closed in 1968/9, I would describe these cars as "replicas" in the best sense of the word.
Salvatore Diomante in Turin has also built a number of recreations, but generally his body styling is easy to recognise, and at least he puts a "by SD" badge on the cars. Trouble is, as soon as the car gets sold, the owner is tempted to whip them off and sell the car as the real thing to some poor sucker. They may be very nice cars, beautifully-built, but they are not REAL Bizzarrinis, built in period. Diomante has also restored/rebuilt many genuine cars over the years. Sometimes they were so badly damaged that an essentially new chassis and body had to be built. Things can get SO confusing for the historian!

Anyway, I've gone on long enough. I just hope people will behave politely on this forum in the future. Arguments are fine, but let's be civil!

Here's a picture of my Grifo #226/D at Brooklands in 2005. I'm the one in the glasses.
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Does anyone know the chassis number of this car? It's in my "unknown" file at present! It featured in Ruoteclassiche, in October 2000, I believe it was.

 

You are quite right Giotto - well spotted!
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BO 202 again
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eckos1= Real name Gerhard Eckstein, which car do you own please.( do you own 0261 ? ) I believe that you live in San Diego, nice weather.

 

I see Hall & Bradfield have

1963 Iso A3/C
Chassis: B 0201
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Had, car dead Goodwood 2007

 

Thank you for the correction - silly me - the Stretton car

However I believe intensive care might be more appropriate as rebuild under way

 

I don't follow .. why would the cars Bizzarrini built after the factory closed be labeled replicas?

 

I agree with you, the only one who can claim that the car is a Bizzarrini is Giotto.
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DEFINITION replica, replication, reproduction

copy that is not the original; something that has been copied
================================================

Now, the correct appelation should be post "70" , post "80" ...until today where Giotto still built cars, they are post "2000" but are still Bizzarrinis.

Replica is a word who describe a VW engine powered 550 fiberglass Porsche.
A Car built by Giotto and Diomante is still a Bizzarrini, the P538 built by Giotto and Diomante late "70 is still a Bizzarrini, post "70 but still a Bizzarrini

Photo Bizzarrini P538 Post "70
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Car was badly damage in the back 2002 Monterey, Goodwood 2007, the front, the roof.
What else is original ? But now, they will need to correctly documente the reconstruction to see exactly what they save from the car

 

Bizzarrini went bankrupt and sold the name "Bizzarrini" so legally he can not make Bizzarrini's any more, he calls them Grifo's and other names. I believe VGM now owns the rights to the name Bizzarrini. This is a partial answer mabe other members can add.

 

You are right but it s very confusing as at Padova, we saw 2 news Bizzarrini made by VGM ( in reality, who built them ? ) and they had the old logo Bizzarrini on it with Giotto on the stand.
Anyway, even with the Grifo name, it s still a Bizzarrini I believe

Photo, Giotto at Brussel with the "GRIFO" a fews years ago
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Yes confusing. I would say it's a similar situation to the new Shelby Cobra's, they have CX numbers , but they don't demand the same prices as the early cars for obvious reasons. If buyers of these later cars knew they were not real they would not pay the same amount. Shelby announced it publicly and many of the Bizzarrini copies were made by people other than Bizzarrini.

 

I ll tell you the story of 315 ( for sale today ) read carefully.
Panizza in Italy own in the "80 the Spider vin 315, he sold the car in USA, but keep the papers.
After, he ask a shop close to Milano to built a new 315, colour yellow...
After car sold to England where they completely built a new body and with FIA papers 1965, they go racing...

What the name for this car ? Air Milano ?
But to say this on internet, you need to be sure 100 % to avoid any problems.
Today same owner built Iso Daytona yellow ...
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I'm saddened when someone quotes a sentence he says he agrees with, just to start behaving in the very way the quoted sentence said to be avoided...

Mr Olczyk, I agree with velocetwo that your post reads like a threat, and that's miles away from the behaviour you are yourself expecting from people posting in this thread.

I’m afraid you would be uncomfortable at discussing the difference between a threat and
"just explain what happen to a self appointed expert who spread on internet untrue comments, have been asked to remove them and after his refusal to act, was taken to court". Especially when you add "I m sure that you wouln t want that."

The place here would be much better if you could manage to refrain from evocating legal issues or focus on anyone’s privacy. After all, your own quote above suffices to explain why anyone may feel concerned about privacy.

Otherwise, I agree with you about the definition of a replica. A replica is something built to look like the original, but without any claim for it being an original, such as a VW powered fiberglass Porsche, ... while a fake is a replica, no matter if of good or bad craftmanship, that someone tries to pass for the real thing. This definition could help sorting out the Bizzarrini issue. A post 70 or post 80 Bizzarrini is certainly a nice and valuable car, yet of lesser historical value than a car built by the "Prototipi Bizzarrini" company. But it's a fake when sold as if it were an original period Bizzarrini, i.e. a car 1) built by Giotto and 2) when he was still entitled to use his own name for his production.

We are thus back to the interesting point of "real cars" whose VIN might have been swapped, forged or even duplicated...

Anyone would like experts to be able to tell that and to be trustworthy when doing so. I agree with Chris Lackner's statement a few posts above on this latest point.