Physical limits can be overcome. Case in point: Alex Zinardi. Other examples abound. But the disagreement simply comes down to this: I don't believe that DNA has that much influence on what capabilities you can reach. The theoretical potential of the human machine is vastly beyond what anyone in history has ever accomplished. So I can't accept that there's a physical limitation to skills. There may be perceptual limits, or billyuns of other reasons why someone will stop improving, but I don't think it's possible to look at someone's past performance and state that they've hit an absolute immovable barrier. But then, people used to say that man would never fly, and that the sound barrier was a brick wall in the sky. I should also point out that despite a mechanical defect putting Massa at the back of the first race, he was leading Kimi in the points from Monaco until Britain, and was matching Kimi until a DNF in Italy determined which driver would be supporting the other. That "never ever beaten a teammate in identical machinery" just ain't true. Massa beat Kimi in "identical machines" six times in the first 12 races of 2007. In the last four races, Massa gave up a position ahead of Kimi twice. How is it that Massa made "horrible blunders" and yet matched the 07 WDC for the first 75% of the season? Did Kimi "blunder" his way to the WDC, or was Massa not that bad?
The limitations are constantly shifting and are in fact determined by human limitations. It's judging the whole whilst being part of the whole. Genes are turned on by the environment and they operate on the environment. The ensuing complexity is beyond any current conscious human understanding. >There may be perceptual limits, or billyuns of other reasons why someone will stop improving, but I don't think it's >possible to look at someone's past performance and state that they've hit an absolute immovable barrier. Especially when Massa's improvement has been remarkable. The move Massa pulled in China qualis is also questionable. In either case he wouldn't 'win' the race. He was out since Monza. +1 on the entire post.
We've seen team Ferrari put a lot of emphasis on "after Monza" before -- e.g. Shumi announcing his retirement after Monza. Massa came to Italy leading Kimi 69 to 68 pts. But Massa's DNF at the Italian GP gave Kimi a five point advantage after the race, so "after Monza" is likely when Ferrari designated Kimi to go for the WDC. (Then, or after the WCC became a non-issue, around the same time.) Going by track positions, aside from the Monza DNF, Massa matched Kimi's performance all year. I do think he's got a tougher job cut out for him next year, now that Kimi has adapted to the car. But I expect another year when Kimi and Filipe will have similar points -- at least until "after Monza". Those who insist on seeing Massa as a "mediocre driver" have missed one of the most amazing aspects of the 2007 year: McLaren had a clearly superior car (by questionable means), but found itself with *two* "#1" drivers -- and was thrown into chaos by it. Ferrari, despite limitations of the long wheelbase car and some team blunders also had two "#1" drivers -- but worked together to win out in the end. Replacing Phil with Alonso at Ferrari would be a blunder of biblical proportions. Massa and Kimi are are *both* top notch drivers -- and they're a team. They can't improve on that.
Pal, you're grasping at straws now. How can I say this tastefully: Zinardi sucked at F1 with legs and he would without them. He overcame his handicap in lower racing formulas, true. But that's a downcomparison. Doesn't tell you anything about an upcomparison. As others said, I can study as long and hard as I want, I'll never be Einstein. I can practice Golf 24x7 and never beat Tiger. Talent plus training gets you to the top. Training alone gets you to midfield.
Probably not: Being convinced of your "physical limits", you've given up without even trying. What used to be "lacks mental discipline", requiring further effort, is now "attention deficit disorder", deemed a "physical limitation" -- and a free pass to give up. We live in an excuse-based culture, rather than a results-based one. And nobody's been back to the moon in a generation. Besides: If you want to focus on isolated details, read a biography: would you actually *want* to be Einstein?
This has been discussed previously. Ferrari's strategy worked because one driver was elimintaed from contention and had to support the other whereas McLaren had both drivers in contention to the very end. Had the situation with point standings been different, the results might well have been in McLaren's favor. You can't make the argument that one team worked together and the other didn't because both teams used identical strategy, allow both drivers to race until one is out of it, then have him support the remaining driver. McLaren would have done the exact same thing but both drivers stayed in contention all season long. Ferrari is lucky that Massa is simply not as good a driver as the others as he slotted into his natural #2 role when he fell behind in the points race and was able to support Kimi.
Of course having Nicolas Todt as your manager would have nothing to do with it... He went from 3rd in the points to 4th. Is that what constitues "improved performance" on your planet? Did Ferrari sign Rubens because they thought he would beat Schumacher?!? Or did they sign him because they knew he would play the role of a good lapdog to the team's #1 driver. I am sure this is somehow relevant on yoru planet but here on Earth this is completely and utterly meaningless. What does that have to do with anything we are discussing. Let me know what planet you are on. Here's a prediction for you: Massa will ONCE AGAIN be beaten by his teammate in F1. Thus far I am 7 for 7 on that one.
A five point differential is hardly "out of it", at a time when Kimi was 18 points behind Hamilton and 15 behind Alonso. Alonso trailed Lewis by 12 points both after Silverstone and after Fuji. Was he "out of it" at that point? Ferrari simply picked a decision point, and Kimi had the slight edge at that threshold. Had the margin been the other way, we can't know for certain whether Massa -- with Kimi's support -- might have managed the WDC or not. This wasn't a case of a "natural #2 role", as Massa was leading Kimi in the points before the Monza DNF.
McLaren policy is to let both drivers race until one of them is mathematically eliminated. I don't know what the deal is with Ferrari regarding mathematical elimination but at a very minimum the team management recognized that Kimi could possibly deliver a title but Massa could not. They, of course, were correct.
Kimi got LUCKY Massa handed him some wins if Massa was ahead after Monza he would be WDC, at some point the team must decide who to support for the WDC LH threw away a certain WDC anything else is waffle
Ferrari isn't going to play around like that with millions of dollars on the line.. to think Massa got the job because of his manager is laughable.
i won't say Kimi's lucky, he did, after all, work his ass out for this. kept his focus and cool, thats the most important thing. however, i will say Kimi benefited from Felipe's retirement at Monza. Massa was leading Kimi in the WDC when they show came to Monza, and given Kimi's neck at that time, i think Phil could have given a better performance compared to Kimi at that race. Then Spa, Massa was fast there too, but the team asked him to not to challenge Kimster, and so on and so forth. what i'm saying here is, i think both Ferrari drivers had a genuine shot at the WDC this season. i just hope they up their next year and get the car not just fast, but reliable as well.
Brian, when you're as far behind as KR was with 2 races to go you have to get lucky or it's all over. Sure you have to perform but don't tell me KR beat FM fair and square, all this KR hero worshipping is a load of rubbish when you take into account the assistance he received from the his team mate. I thought Kimi was a laydown misere after the Oz GP but at the end of the season Felipe was his equal and he only finished 4th due to bequeathing 2 races to Kimi. I'm extremely happy Ferrari won the WDC and WCC but either driver would be fine in my books, KR AND FM deserve all the plaudits they get but in the end if you had a lead like LH had with 2 races to go you would be banking on the WDC, he blew it Some people here are just so blind to the truth their comments are not worthy of the Ferrari TEAM
Kimi is faster than Phil when he doesn't make mistakes. Somehow he turned it around after some crucial mistakes. Then Phil made some mistakes and had some mistakes made by the team which hurt him. It takes skill, a great car, a well managed and efffective team plus some luck to win a WDC, especially in a season as topsy turvy as 2007. (Much more interesting than when Schumi was winning every year and had the title wrapped up with several races to go. Of course, I really enjoyed it. But 2007 was much more interesting. Couldn't sit down for the last 7 laps of the Brazilian GP. Really a nail biter.)
Were this reduction true, you could be an F1 midfielder, and, as you're implying be as good as Massa. Talent & Training may get you to the top. They may also get you midfield, in F1 or at FCA events. And they may get you nowhere - all this in terms of public value, since ultimately everything one does has personal value. While talent and training often travel separately in select Fchat theories, they seldomly travel separately in real life. Nor are talent and training on/off buttons, blk/white race results, unaltered by time. The discussion was not about any of us having a shot at the dc. It was about Massa's. I expect noone here is claiming to be as good as Massa, apart from senna3wc perhaps, who lives on planet 'Those were the days', where the parsimoniousness of human application allows for potential to be perpetually finite, so that the past can be exactly as the future. blew - 'Those were the days' will be - 'Those were the days'
What would you estimate the chances of MS being a better judge of Massa's potential than your 'algo' are? 'Those were the days' - ONCE AGAIN
Please show me where I claim to be as good as Massa. It is bad enough that you spout inanities, must you add outright lies as well? The "parsimiousness of human application allows for potential to be perpetually finite"?!? Well that's just dandy. I guess Patrese must have been the greatest driver to have ever graced the tarmac given that he was the most experienced F1 driver of all time. Surely his capabilites must have been honed to a razor's edge with all the time he spent driving around the track. And how on Earth could you ever expect a driver like Kimi or Hamilton to step into an F1 car with such limited experience and be immediately on it? It could never happen. And Massa vs. Heidfeld? Sure, Heidfeld blew Massa's doors off way back when but since then Massa has been racing in F1 and Heidfeld has been...well, racing in F1 too but he clearly didn't learn as much as Massa and therefore Massa somehow found speed and talent that he didn't have before and...well, you get the picture... Perhaps someday you can work on your golf swing enough to beat Tiger Woods, since you seem to be so confident that there is no difference in one person's potential from another. Perhaps you can work on your jump shot and break Michael Jordan's records. Or maybe you can learn to skate and break Gretzky's records. Or learn to hit a curveball and break the MLB home run record. After all, it is not like there are tens of thousands of talented athletes trying to do that or anything Anyone know how many laps around Fiorano Luca Badeour has driven? Surely he must be as fast as Michael Schumacher by now...
Ted, simple fact, I don't like being wrong any more than the next guy. I don't like being flamed here on FChat any more than you. But it is quite apparent you were watching a different F1 series than I did this year. :} Keep in mind I am glad Kimi won the WDC over Phil this year. If he hadn't, after all the failures at McLaren, failure to deliver by Ferrari in 2007 would affect Kimi's mental attitude in 2008, while I think Massa will return stronger than ever next year. With the level of competition expected in 2008, Ferrari will need to be strong and have two drivers capable of the WDC along with having their mutual cooperation. But I stick by Massa, completely, because what I saw was the WDC taken away from him by his own team's mistakes on multiple occasions. If those mistakes did not affect his starting postion, despite the ill handling car, despite the wind tunnel issue, despite the ridiculous wheelbase design, he very probably would have earned the points he needed to be in the same position as Kimi was at the end, and it would have been Massa challenging for the WDC in Brazil (his home track). And if I remember correctly, Massa led the season in race fastest laps, Brazil included, so he is no slouch on the track. He made no more on track mistakes than Kimi. And if Massa is substantially leading Kimi in points by Monza 2008, Kimi will be his #2 for the balance of the season. That is Ferrari. Most important the WCC, then the WDC. I for one would love to see Ferrari with two WDC's in 2009 that were earned while on the team as teammates. I pray for no more auto accidents so I can see that.
I don't think anything affects Kimi's attitude. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Kimi found a way to win, Massa did not. Bottom line. Losers always have an excuse why they did not win. Apply your same logic to Hamilton or Alonso and they would have been untouchable this season. I can make the exact same argument for how Jensen Button could have won the WDC in 2004 or Rubens in 2002. In fact I can give you an argument based on "if not for this" or "if not for that" how ANY driver on F1 could have been WDC.
Com'on Ted, really weak argument! No different than the illogical concept you use to suggest Massa wasn't capable. And you can apply the same "logic" I used to Alonso and Hamilton, they should of won, except in their case the driver's threw away the championship with on track mistakes as they had the best car all year. Remember, I was responding to your comments, not about the actual season results. I was talking about woulda shouldas. Kimi did not alone find a way to win, his team certainly helped put him there. They did not make prerace errors that cost him starting positions on tracks where passing is difficult. If he suffered the same mistakes as Massa's crew delivered, he would have come in third. Luck has a big part of winning any championship. When luck was with him, Massa out performed Raikkonen all through the first half of the season. And we did see Kim's attitude affected while at McLaren and the early part of 2007 with Ferrari. In his recent interview he admitted this. He is after all, human. As I said earlier, I am glad Kimi won the 2007 WDC. But that was not meant to detract from the fact that I believe Massa is capable of that same honor.
Well you did claim before the season started that your dog was faster than Massa, and than in the past few days that your grandmother has a better shot at winning a WDC than him.
Didn't the ill handling car, the wind tunnel issue, the "ridiculous" (?) wheelbase design affect Kimi equally?
