911, ZR-1 or Mondial

Well, I have a 993 Targa, a 95 ZR-1, and a Testarossa right now. I have owned an '82 911SC Targa, back in 82.

So - here goes: If you are serious about a late ZR-1, and ready to spend that kind of money, with Porsche I would immediately discount a mid-80s 911 in favor of a 993 model. I thought the mid-80s were just about the low point in the 911 history. The 993 model is quite simply the very best 911 aircooled series ever built. They are getting a little pricey, though, because of all the people who want an aircooled car.

The ZR-1 breaks down into three catageories: 300 mile plastic-bag time capsule cars, mid to highly modified road/track specialty cars, and a few like mine which are limited mileage drivers. They used to be great bargains, but are now kind of edging back up in value, particularly the unmodified ones. There were only 448 made each of years 93, 94, and 95 due to engine shortage. About the last 50 or 60 made in 1995 had a cylinder head modification called the "Dunne heads" which gives better breathing, but the rated HP was not advertised as being greater. Some of the modified cars by Lingenfelter had been stroked to 415 CID and are real firebreathers (<>500+ hp) - they usually do not sell for as much as one of the time capsule cars.

The stock ZR-1 is by far the most powerful and capable road car of the three you have mentioned. I would not personally put my 86 Testarossa up against my ZR-1 in any sort of challenge - road, track, or particularly dragstrip. ZR1 is also a very reliable car, at least by most upper level sports car standards. But, be warned that only very few will know that it is anything other than a 12 to 15 year old Corvette. You will need to find a specialist mechanic, not a dealership. And Rob Lay will not let you into the Broadway show with it!

I have never even driven a Mondial, but there is probably not $10K difference in a really good collector quality ZR1 and an early Testarossa, if you want something that stands out.

So, that's my honest word on the subject from out here on the Texas plains,

James

 

If you buy the ZR-1 and need an "engine tool kit" PM me...

 

25k for a zr-1? a driver i would think...am i correct? my friend has a 91 w/ 15k miles on it and 25k would not buy it. what is fair market value on these cars?

 

930

 

oh yeah...

 

No contest, 911, or even better 930!

 

ZR1 all the way out of those 3!!!

 

great thread.

to start off:

i dont know anything about the Mondial series, as i dont want one.

i dont like Corvettes, having had several, and having work on a few friends cars off and on. this is not meant to be an insult to those that love them.

i have an 89 se esprit and an 89 anniversary carrera. i would hands down buy another 911 coupe. they are cars you can drive in traffic, everyday, and you can be as easy or hard on them as you like. i have the benefit of having 2 friends here that are Porsche gurus, so my cars are clean with no leaks, and the valve adjustments have been done already.

i cannot stress this enough, its my personal opinion to stay far away from the targa and cab 911's . **GET A COUPE** most have sunroofs if you want a little more air and sun. the coupes drive and feel like they are part of the road. please understand i dislike the GTS / open top Ferrari's too, which is why i have had so many GTB's. hard top cars just handle better for me in all conditions. your tastes may be different.

i like the fact i can drive the 911 anywhere and none cares. the attention the esprit gathers is not always welcome when your are tired or not feeling well.


the 89 Carrera has the G50 trans, which is miles better than the 915. the 89's also have 250 HP, the most in USA trim of the 84-89 series. add SSI exhaust and a chip and you have a great car that still gets 22mpg. as an aside, i had no problems with the 915 trans in my green euro 911. changing the clutch cable in the 84 really helped the feel of the car. the 89 uses a hydraulic clutch slave cylinder, which is one reason folks feel they drive better.

if you want to come here for a fun weekend, you may drive either of my cars to compare them.


i always ignored the 911 series , until i met my buddies, Joe and Brian, and Kevin. together they have shown me so much about the Porsche cars, and as a gear head, i have fallen in love with the brand. the 84-89 911 coupe is a car you can get in, and become a better and better driver in. just a trip to the store at legal speed is fun. a 930 turbo is an outstanding car, and i do want one. but i am not a competent enough driver to really know how to push one and not die . ( )

i do need to go, but post pm me with any 911 questions you may have. PelicanParts has an outstanding 911 forum.

 

ZR1 hands down!.

 

michael...i am really glad you have discovered the 911. the air cooled versions are the platform for what must be considered the greatest sports car in history. the engine is also the winningest in sports car racing history!!

and yes, the 84-89 carrera is a fantastic choice...getting harder and harder to find a great one under $25-30k.

get a turbo...modified properly, you will wonder why you have wasted soooo many years w/o...the power!!!

pcb

p.s. zr-1's are tremendous machines and have the heart of a lotus w/ the lotus developed power plant!!

 

911
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check this one....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1986-Porsche-930_W0QQitemZ330175322799QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330175322799

pm me if interested - it is a beauty!

I would entertain offers less than the $46,650. buy it now price....seeing and driving and inspection and you will not be disappointed!

 

Personally, I would opt for a 78/79 930 if I could find an excellent example, visceral thrills galore.

A business associate of mine just picked up a gorgeous 1993 ZR-1, red/tan, 28k miles for $23,750. The car was purchased from the original owner and is bone stock and has never been hit. If my budget was 24k I would have a tough time passing on the car.

 

I vote for the ZR1, just my 2 cents.

 

'87-'89 911 - I think those years had the G50 gearbox upgrade.

Like carreaper, I can't comment on the Mondial -- always loved the 308/328 more. I have driven '84 and '87 911s, and those last few years of the original 911 are, as he says, great cars. The build quality was top notch, and I don't know of any weak spots in these cars, assuming you do the regular valve adjustments/maintenance. You will always get your money out of these cars. I like the 993 better, but I sold mine for $50K a few years back and I'd bet it's more than that now.

Unlike carreaper, I like open cars, especially targa tops. The Mondial cab is a cumbersome design. The 911 Targa is very nice to drive - though it does squeak and creak like any 20-year old open car.

The ZR1 is sickeningly fast (my uncle has one of those time-capsule cars), but it's rubbish inside -- very dated and cheap-looking. Also, as someone posted, it does look like every other $15K used C4 Corvette, and comes with 1980s GM build quality.

 

How you thought about a first Gen Viper?
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Mike knows that I'm partial to 911 coupes-I have a 911 SC that I'm seriously thinking of dropping a 3.6 into-and when asked my opinions on sportscars I always say the following-"Ferrari is the best sportscar manufacturer but the 911 is the greatest sportscar ever made." Going to PCA DEs I always hear the following from the 993 guys-"I miss that extra communication, road feel, feedback, etc., from my SC/Carrera." Don't get me wrong, they LOVE their 993s, especially as daily drivers, but they will say it is not as direct as the earlier 911s.

Mike-join PCA and do some DEs-you'll have a blast and will soon be confident enough to take on the mythical 930 Turbo. The lightly modified ones (1 BAR spring, exhaust) are just simply fantastic cars...the 930s, especially the 1989 model, will skyrocket in value...

I always hated Vettes but I have to tell you the 2008 is really growing on me, and you can buy the oil/air filters at Walmart. The fact that Chevy is racing the car successfully tells me that they learned something from their competitors...

 

....based, presumably, on your vast experience with all the cars mentioned, right?

 

I have a lot of Corvette experience, some Porsche and a hint of Ferrari, so my post is mostly about the Vette.

As for the Mondial, I have to say this delicately, but its not a car I would ever buy. If the Ferrari name is the most important thing, then the Mondial is the easiest way to achieve that without spending a lot. But other than that I think the car pales in terms of fun to drive, reliability and cost of upkeep.

The Porsche is probably the best one to buy. It is amazingly fun to drive, and a car you can really use. Its not got any silly hang-ups that will drive you nuts, and shouldn't be too expensive to maintain provided its not a problem car.

And now for the ZR-1. If I got into collecting, I would own a ZR-1. A 1995 admiral blue one thats pretty much stock. or one of the same year/color nasty LPE cars. But if I wanted a fun car to drive? No way. C4's were not great cars when they were new, and now that they are 15 years old (and the original design is 20 years old), they are really really not great cars by todays standards. The biggest problem with a C4 is the build quality. In the early-mid 90's, GM still hadn't figured out how to properly build a car. There are exposed screws all over the interior, and the car is basically bolted together from lots of little pieces put on top of a double-rail frame, rather than what you get today which would be more like a form-fitted shape where everything appears to have been designed to go together. So what you say? Well, one magazine comment sticks out in my head - that the C4 Corvette was not so much a single car, as a loose collection of related parts floating along together in the same vicinity. In short, the car rattles, squeaks, bends, twists, flexes and trying to fix these problems will slowly drive you insane. Also, should your ZR-1 need engine repair, some parts are very hard to find and you could be waiting. Overall they are fun to drive, fast, still look good, the DOHC-32V motor is fantastic and extremely reliable, and I personally like the techo-interior. But on the downside they are cramped, can be very expensive to repair, have lots and lots of "little problems" (electrical, usually), they rattle and squeak, and without too many miles they start to really look beat (things like door seals disintegrating, sandblasted paint on rocker panels and rear bumper). Basically a ZR-1 is a superbly fantastic engine in an absolute crap car. Having said that I love C4's and have disassembled them own to the last nut and bolt, and built them up again, raced them, tracked them, fixed them, owned them, wrecked them and loved them. But I dunno if it's a curse I would wish on someone else

 

The Porsche seems like it would be a great way to fly. Nice car if a bit expensive to keep running.. (not compared to the lotus I'm sure)

I'd pass on the ZR1 because the expensive upkeep of that motor and the more flexible chassis than the C5 Corvette.. Getting into the ZR1 or any C4 is a tough excercise on a daily basis..

I'd suggest going over to www.z06vette.com and picking up a C5 (corvette forum) www.corvetteforum.com or a Z06 for 20 to 25 grand as a daily driver..

There are many very low mileage well kept corvettes available for between 20 and 25 grand.

Its a great daily driver thats very inexpensive to maintain to over 150K thousand miles..

Good luck and the porsche is a great choice too.. Love them...but if your keeping the Lotus wouldn't it be nice to have a daily driver that starts everytime and all you have to do is change the oil every 6 to 10 K miles..

Thats one of the attractions to a corvette C5. Plus its very rigid lightweight chassis make ride and handling world class.. No rattles!

The C6 with 436hp with the Z51 suspension can be had for 44 grand...Top speed 190 ..zero to 60 in 4 flat.. new steering rack that has extreme precision compared to Porsche by Car and driver.. Let me know if you need a hook up on that 49 grand vehicle brand new for 44 g's.. but if you prefer not to buy new? Go for the collectors C5 that's never driven in the snow or rain...and only on sundays..

There's about a million of them to choose from..

Good luck..

 

Well, sorry about that. I had just assumed a budget of around 45K or so since you mentioned the late ZR1...looking through Hemmings lately, I don't know that you can get into a late model ZR1 for much less than about 40K that is a good example.

You might also try to look through the ZR1Net website; they have a illustrated classified section broken down by year. I got mine (black/black, production number 401 out of the last 448 1995s) from a classified ad in Hemmings in 1999 (it had 14,500 miles at the time) and it was about 43K at the time. I would put it at about 40K today, with around 32,000 miles. The RUF dealer here in Dallas showed me a 3,500 mile 1995 which was White/Tan and just like new everywhere. He was asking 49,500 for it. Generally, as someone else said, white Corvettes are usually a tougher resale than the other colors. There is one cruel fact of life not mentioned yet about the ZR1 - the windshield delamination. The ZR1 had a gold metallic coating to help the A/C unit (that aluminum engine develops a lot of underhood heat) that is different from other Corvettes. Practically every one of them delaminates around the frame - even the #448 1995 car that is in the museum at Bowling Green is delaminating, and it went directly into the museum (out of the sun) from off the line. They do not have new windshields for these anymore, so your only options are a standard Corvette part, or a custom made one which one of the club members had done this past year in France with the original coating and the little trapezoid for you radar detector. $1500 or thereabouts.

Another option is a high-mileage 993; mine is 95K miles now as it is the daily driver. I had RUF do a top overhaul on it last year, and I plan to drive it forever - they estimated it was worth about mid-twenties wholesale when I got the Testarossa, so it did not seem to be worth selling it for garage space at that price.

Finally, as nobody has had much of anything good to say about the Mondial, I personally have always thought that this was a very underrated car. A number of the Ferrari club people around here are starting to come around to these; I know of at least one 328 guy who would like the have the 2+2 capability for his 2 small kids. Yet it somehow got no respect from the press or most fans - the four valve version is I think a very worthwhile car for the money.

Good luck - I guess you will post when the decision gets made.

James

 

Porches are hard to beat if you are into that sort of thing, tough reliable but a bit of a beetle to drive. A mondial has to be a QV 84 or later, the earlier ones were dogs, even better if you can find an 8.32. The later ones go great and you get that GP feeling. The thing about ferraris is the purchase is the first stop, any ferrari can eat 5k for breakfast. However good a mondial you buy, somewhere in the next 5 years you will be spending at least 1k per year amortised maintanance. If you can do the work yourself obviously it will be significantly less, and a mondial is a car that can be worked on at home. They can be drivers but are best enjoyed as a sunday drive type of car, in this setting the ferrari is by far the most satisfying.

The ZR1 has plenty of go, and the motor is smooth and exotic. They rattle and squeek more with every mile. There is good grip, they are aerodynamicaly stable, above 150 the rear hatch shimmys so much the the seal blows out leading to a lot of subben noise. A vette was once described as a losse collection of parts traveling in the same direction. I would not describe a zr1 as tight, but it does go and grip, is predicatble but here is very little tactile enjoyment from the controls.

A modial or porche is a tactile experience and delight at most speeds. As an investment if you were keeping it for a while I would bet the zr1 is the least expensive to own and has the greates appreciation potential.