No external body work required only chassis tubes and some firewall work so if you suck only you will know. Either way you'll have a 12 cyl 308 not a TR or a 400i 2 seater.
No, it won't fit without stretching the wheel base or way off-set the 1/2 shafts. It will go in a 348 and newer, but it won't go in in a 308/328. I was looking at a a complete TR driveline with the subframe that was for sale 5 or 6 years ago. now a 4" frame stretch with GTO panels would do it nicely.
Oh yeah, now you've done it, im going to measure my boxer engine tonight and check the 308 right beside it and let you know!
Perfect! I was trying to do everything email and couldn't convince myself there was hope. If you get a different answer I still have time to change directions.
I believe this is Greg246's engine but its similar to mine or any TR powerplant dimension-wise. Ill measure tonight though. You can see the one axle housing paritally. DO IT DO IT DO IT! Image Unavailable, Please Login
Give me the dimension from the front of the engine to the center of the axle. I've got my trans sitting in the otherwise enmty engine bay so with that dimension I'll know in minute if it will go and I don't think it will, a tr is bigger for a reason...... Edit: Give me a width cover to cover too, that could be a problem with the rear suspension.
A TR has no rear trunk.......you dont need one either. Ill get back to you tonight with the favourable measurements .
I'm fine with with no trunk, but i do need a firewall bhind the seats and I don't think the tr/boxer driveline will allow that with the stock wheel base. I also need rear suspension and I'm concernd that the width and placement of the TR/boxer engine relative to the axle centerline will not allow that either. Those are the 2 problems I recall from 5-6 years ago when I first concidered it and why I was thinking TR subframe and GTO panels. Had I seen the job Bert did on his fenders at the time, I might have jumped in thinking I could fly him over when the time came
Ill measure up from the pans to the underside of the heads but Ill bet my left nut (or the right but not both) that the width isnt an issue with the control arm pickup points. My 308 axles dont have a straight shot from the diff to the hubs now so a forward operating angle isnt a problem if its minor. Firewalls are over-rated but if you insist you can keep the forward one. I bet its still less hair pulling than the route you're going now and the powerplant can always be resold as an unmodified assy unlike the 400 set-up.
dimensions are as follows: overall length from pulley to transfer gear cover - 44" width from valve cover to valve cover - 30" axle shaft centerline from front pulley - 27" height from bottom of pan to underside of cylinder heads - 10" over all height of injected engine from pan to plenum - 28" The length is right with room to spare once the trunk firewall and floor are gone. The axle centerline is dead nuts the same as the 308 considering the firewall angles and the crank pulley would be low. The width is right with the exception of the damn upper control arm mounts (like you thought). I didnt spend much time looking but they would need to be reworked and PLOP in she goes with room all around. The actual measurement I got was 29" of room by eyeballing the height of the valve covers from my boxer, the engine is around 30" in that area so it wont fit without a modification to the frame. It can be done, its a question of what do you modify, a 12 cylinder engine that has a particular value, a 308 gearbox too or a 308 rear frame section. You can also sell the 308 gearbox and the 400 engine to recoupe some dough. I would go for the flat12 but im biased. I can take more measurements or pics if needed.
you need this......not sure who's pic it is anymore, sorry or I would give credit where credit is due. P. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The upper control arm mount is a straightforward job now that I look at it, no problem there. The bigger problem is the frame cross member at the rear of the engine bay would just plain need to come out. I could move it behind the engine, but that will leave the suspension mounts quite a bit springier than they are now…..let me think about that one. It looks like the axles would need to be shortened, and maybe a slight angle depending where everything comes out with the firewall angle, not a big deal though. Then lose the truck and it’s in. It also looks tight for the exhaust to frame clearances, but doable. Not much space left for the mufflers, but again doable I think. The biggest problem is the rear frame cross member I think…..hmmm. I guess a tall box, like 4” by 12” that wraps around behind the engine and grabs both the lower and upper A-arm mounts would give at least equivalent strength and not look too bad. Ok, I’m convinced it can be done, a lot of work on the chassis, but probably not more work than I’m planning for the engine/trans. Then it’s a question of money I guess. I’ve got $8k into the 400 and TR heads and will need another, oh say $4k, ok maybe $6k, so $14k. If I sell it all and the 308 trans, maybe I’ve got $10k??? . A used TR engine/trans would run 12k? 20K? I’m just not sure. I’d want to do the heads at least to get the hp up to spec, so probably a full rebuild on the engine. If I could get a tired engine and a good trans for $10k-$12k it would be about a wash money wise I guess. I’d need real number on TR stuff I guess to make a decision.
Interestingly there are 2 on ferrariadds. A nice '86 set-up for $19k and a sad '87 set-up for $17k. So $7k over budget It looks like I stay the course if these prices are realistic.
agreed, make an offer. If Roland Linder can buy an F40 engine in the crate off ebay complete with intercoolers and turbos for $20K then you can do better on the old Tr stuff. Dimension-wise the engines are similar but not the same, the cam drive setup is different at the cranks and the width/location of the powerplant mounts is wider than the boxer.
I just paid $4k for Nice TR heads, and a decent bottom end just sold for $2k....so thinking about it, the '87 is probably actually worth about $6k, maybe $8 at the VERY outside. That would make it about a wash money wise if I can get him to go for what I think is a reasonable number. I'm struggling mentally with the cutting though, I was not planning to cut up a perfectly good car. I'm sure I can do it, but it's a lot of cutting. If I cut up the 400 block and screw it up I'm out $1000. If I get the engine done and screw up the 308 gear case, another $1000. If I cut the trunk and rear frame apart and screw-up I'll turn a $10k rolling chassis into a $2k chassis? Than if I ever need to sell the car, it will be tuff to convince a buy that it's ok that I cut the snot out of the frame but most people will never even think to ask how much cutting and welding I did on the engine block. I don't know......
Ok, Lana says that if I change the engine another time I should plan divorce costs into the project. 400 engine it is. Its nice when decisions are made easy. If somebody else needs help putting a boxer or TR engine in a 308, I'm pretty sure I know how it can be done, but it won't be done in my car.....at least not this one.
TRs rev up different than 60 degree 12s, I liked the way my 400A reved up better than the TRs Ive driven,TRs rev like harleys,all torque,no steep HP curve from 4500rpm,TRs dont steam it big time,they chug chug on long gears.The Founders favorite not his car was the Buggati 158,a transverse straight 8,1.5 GP car, 1951? The 400 project is soooooo pro,best luck to you. The 400 intake trumpets between the cams has appeal from a visual car show aspect and a week on the flow bench with the 400 heads might solve all your problems. Have you considered F1 type computer hydralic valve actuation? Electric water pump,no cams etc.Boss, What do you think of Ducati 996 50mm TBs for 308s,need 4 pairs?
I think he should just have a ceramic block and heads manufactured too and go direct injection to compliment the hydraulic valve actuators. What do you say Mark?
Just button the stuff back together, unload it and pick up a TR engine and gearbox. Its easier to beg for forgivness than it is to ask for permission, lol. Thats easy for me to say, your wife cant punch me from this distance.
The 50mm ducati TBs would work very well on a fully ported high flow head. Something that big would be wasted on a mostly stock head. But Im not sure if they can be had at a price that would make then a good alternative to aftermarket stuff. With the TR heads and ports in the middle, the problem become the runner needing a 20-30 degree turn to keep from running into each other in the REALLY narrow galley, so that is not without problems. I can see why the new engines went from a 60 degree V to a 65 degree V, every little bit helps. You guys have given me many good alternatives and options, but I think Im going to build to the original plan for no particularly good reasons. My car is a 308QV. I bought it because it was a QV and Id like it to stay a QV, its an ODC thing. If it were a 2v car, I am certain I would have abandoned the TR heads when I found the stud issue, but my ODC simply wont let me. The TR engine (no boxer because I need a 4v engine) looks like it would work and make a pretty straightforward conversion and I think its a great idea. In some ways Im a little disappointed with myself for passing on it 5 or 6 years ago when it wouldnt have meant a divorce. Someone will do it Im sure and it will be a great car, but it wont be my car. My car will have a more original look to it then either the TR or 400 heads would allow and I like that .it that OCD again. It will also be more work, but thats ok but it will be what I want when its done. So back to the conversion. Im really thinking Im going to weld the stud holes shut and re-drill. To do it Ill have to cut though the side and open the holes up into the water jacket (once the liners are out). Then I can fill the whole thing with weld and put the holes where I want then and never think about a plug moving or anything else. It will be just like it came that way from the factory. Ill have to clean-up where the cylinder liners go, which has got me thinking about nikasil (sp?) vs iron options. Ill probably stay iron for cost, but I would love to through in a set of 85mm 348 liners and have what would resemble a stroked F50 engine. If I could find 12 used liners cheap that I could rebuild (its about $100 each to have the nikasil re-done), that might be in the budget.
Your extra luckily because she hits hard! I dont know if you saw the movie the Italian jod, but therea line in it that is all too true. If there is one thing Ive learned, you dont mess with mother****ing Ukrainians. Lana is short for Svitlana, a good Ukrainian name
