My project: 308 GTB group 4 rallycar | Page 4 | FerrariChat

My project: 308 GTB group 4 rallycar

Discussion in '308/328' started by Tour de Corse, Oct 25, 2007.

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  1. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Let's introduce a 308 Rally Challenge :)
    My car will be a group 4 wide wheel arched animal with 12 inch rear wheels :)
    MO
     
  2. rally 308

    rally 308 Rookie

    Jul 4, 2007
    32
    Thanks to my brother for posting the photos
    hi Morten i made the cage from photos i found on the net, where i live we have all the skills to biuld rally cars, we all help each other to keep the cost down, in the past it was mainly Porsche rally cars,but now there are so many Porsches, how long do you think before you have yours built
    Jim
     
  3. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Hi Jim,
    Well, I am "unfortunately" quite busy at the moment, as I have recently started an audio shop, which naturally takes a lot time. However, my hope is to be ready for a smaller event next automn. The body must be ready before summer, painted and prepared for assembly. I might outsource the body work.
    MO
     
  4. vetroresina

    vetroresina Karting

    Dec 20, 2005
    174
    Netherlands & Germany
    Full Name:
    Marcel
    #79 vetroresina, Dec 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Morten,

    your project is great. I'm also having these thoughts about building a group 4 for two years and can't decide. My '76 Euro drysump would also be a nice base for such a change over. The fact that the car is as pristine as it looks on the pic, makes it very hard to decide for me. It already has a lot of mod's (with original specs still within reach). That's why I'm still in doubt. A stradale version with those coffinspokes would be an option for less drastic bodychange but at the other hand the gr.4 is more like the way to go. I have build racecars before but I know from my own experience that there is almost no way back when one has left the path. I must admit that you have caught my attention for with this tread almost painfully. Doubt over doubt.

    Question: will you also use those Kugelfisher's (hence 2500 Euro for dyno'd and ready to go)
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  5. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    For me, the group 4 version is a true predator :)
    I want the sound of the four vertical carbs, well knowing that I could get more power from the Kugelfisher. Frankly spoken, I find the soundtrack of the injection a bit boring :)
     
  6. Andrew-400i

    Andrew-400i Karting

    Sep 22, 2007
    186
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Stunning.

    Can't wait for more updates!
     
  7. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Tomorrow will be the day, where we clean-up the garage and slowly start dismantling the car. Pictures will naturally follow. The last month has been used to investigate and find suppliers of parts.
     
  8. 350HPMondial

    350HPMondial F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 1, 2002
    5,325
    18 mi from the surf,, close to Pismo, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwardo
    Cool,,, can I join?
    I want to have the first, , Mondial 8 Rally'

    Edwardo
     
  9. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    #84 Tour de Corse, Dec 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. 350HPMondial

    350HPMondial F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 1, 2002
    5,325
    18 mi from the surf,, close to Pismo, CA
    Full Name:
    Edwardo
    #85 350HPMondial, Dec 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ha,, ha, I counter you play,,,,,,
    with Jedi Squirrels







    and, that is a GTB rally.
    (Wouldn't my Longer wheel base Mondial prevent this type of, , , "Unfortunate off-road Excursion?)
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  11. Ryan S.

    Ryan S. Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 20, 2004
    28,870
    Very nice....best of luck with the project..

    Ry
     
  12. vetroresina

    vetroresina Karting

    Dec 20, 2005
    174
    Netherlands & Germany
    Full Name:
    Marcel
    Morten,
    I worked with Kugelfisher on my racecar and I can not say the sound was bad at all. But, and that's more important, all those gr.4 Michelotto's drove with KF. (As far as I know) It's just a tough job to get things finetuned. But if you want to copy and honour the original then this is the pure way to go.
    Fact is that the KF-system is reliable effective but dated. The better system to build is FI managementsystem but, and there's a serious point, it misses the sound that carb's and mechanical injection made so distinctive.
    At the other hand, I must say that I admire your initiative and I will follow your progression closely. because, maybe, I'll follow the same path. The flares, and when it comes to actually fabricate them, are no problem at all. Glassparts are not so difficult to make. As time passes by, I can help you out with some detailed hints.

    regards Marcel
     
  13. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Hi Marcel,

    I take your point, and will reconsider...

    Do you have any idea about the price for such a Kugelfisher conversion - as well, whether it's obtainable at all ?

    I am aware of Kugelfisher's used on (apparently all) the group 4 cars, but I have difficulties with the FIA homologation papers (the grp. 4 document #648) which do not state anything else than carburators. This together with the FIA appendix'es which do not (in my eyes) allow a change-over from carburators to injection :(

    I have to read the FIA appendix'es again - which is not directly comprehensible stuff to digest.

    MO
     
  14. vetroresina

    vetroresina Karting

    Dec 20, 2005
    174
    Netherlands & Germany
    Full Name:
    Marcel
    I get your point Morten.
    The KF pumps have been used in several special 70's productioncars. A very succesful streetcar in that era was the BMW 2002 TI Who used the KF pump. A lot of these cars went to the scrapheap but the autocrossworld has thankfully used these pumps for many years here in Europe. Now they are old fashion and everyone needs to have a motormanagement. At this point you can imagine that all the spare KF pumps now are somewhat left as unusefull parts and will cost a fraction left. The only part of concern is the cam-profile. The lobes of these pumps can and must be machined to individual dimensions. It would be interresting to know if Michelotto would give that info away (this is something that I haven't tried yet). I've already informed myself about the matter and at the end the costs will be equal to a complete modern motormanagement. (inductionparts included). I still have a 4 cill 3.1 L. race engine with a KF. I've modified the engine several times but it's the same engine that pushed Dutchman Johnny Hakfoort over the finishline as European champion in those 80's. In rally and cross the use of a consistent fueldelivery was primairy. Carb'd engines tended to fail under certain circumstances where centrifugal forces and lift-offs were the cause. (This was just as important to avoid as to have a dry sump to win a race eventually)
    I'll take a pic of my KF ASAP to show you. You need two of them of course.

    Regards,
    Marcel
     
  15. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    The front hood is aluminum on my steel cars.....if that answers your question.

    I think the single distributor change is fairly straightforward, with a blanking plate on the unused side.

    The only reason North America 308GTBs had two units was to make space for the R1 and R2 points system, controlled by the throttle microswitch....my cars retain 2 distribs but only one set of points in each....set to run upper revs.

    LOVE the headlight system ....I have often wished for one, driving late at night thru cattle or deer areas.......
     
  16. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Interesting, I'll have to dig deeper into the issue of fuel injection (which I have no idea about). Weber carburators I know pretty well (as I have had them on all my previous rallycars). Admitted, I have never turned bolts and nuts on cars with injection...
     
  17. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Hey BigTex,

    Strange, my fibre glass car has front hood of aluminum... I wonder how much weight I will save from aluminium to fibre glass... any idea? - anyway, as you can see it needs to be fixed or even replaced.

    Thanks for the input about distributors - I will fortunately "outsource" all the electrical stuff to a person who understand thinks like that :)

    Yeah, the headlight system is really nice and makes the car evil to look at. However I haven't managed yet to find a supplier of the headlight system for the 308, but I will continue. Alternatively use a system for another car, and modify it to match.

    MO
     
  18. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Hella on the lamps, most likely.........I'd recommend a dedicated circuit breaker/rocker switch and you may need to rewind the alternator if the lamp wattage is too high!

    I suspect the aluminum hoods were all made at one time, and that's why not much difference as the change was made from 'glass to steel cars.......I don't know that I have seen an actual fibreglass hood, although there's a thread where they used the type of slotted one that takes radiator out blast right back out the top ahead of the windshield.

    ddiesen fitted it to his car and sold me his old standard hood as a 'spare'.....
     
  19. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    You can get both 4 point and 8 point distributor system parts support, but I think the 8 point caps are even MORE expensive than the 4 point ones!!!

    Less made, I suppose.....
     
  20. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    #95 Tour de Corse, Dec 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    These guys in France http://www.mcracingsa.com/RAMPESRCAPOT200.htm can possible make it for me ...and the price is about 400-500 euro a complete system including 4 pcs PIAA lights.

    Concerning the front hood: The FIA homologation papers from 1976 clearly states vetroresina doors, vetroresina front and vetroresina rear hood... so somethings is rotten :)
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Can I have your old clock????

    I really need one as two of my cars have lost theirs.......


    :D :D :D
     
  23. Tour de Corse

    Tour de Corse Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2007
    259
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Full Name:
    Morten
    Many of you guys want my old car ...in bits and pieces :)

    Send me PM's and I will collect your enquireries and return as soon as loads of stuff are dropping of my car :)
     
  24. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 6, 2002
    79,380
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Ferrari was pretty good at ducking specific questions during Homogulation...LOL!

    I'd wager they were referencing the 'front clip' which of course was fibreglass.
     
  25. MS250

    MS250 Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    26,574
    Full Name:
    Avvocato
    Thanks for showing these pics Mate !!! it really shows how some of these cars get so far along.

    Glad to see it being saved by someone like you to bring it back....Cant wait to see the end result!!!!. Good luck and enjoy the process, would love to see the pics step by step if you have the time...its always a gift for us to learn what people find that we havent seen yet.

    Congrats on the car and the project !!!
     

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