Yet another tragedy on Scottsdale Road

From the story, this happened very close to where the C&C accident happened

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/1229scottsdalecrash-ON.html

Street racing is for idiots. so is going 200+ on a public highway for that matter.

People are going to start thinking people that live in Arizona are all a bunch of retarted speed mongers

In any case this is yet another very sad death and accident

 

It's pink boxers for these quacks. I hope they burn. This kinda thing makes me sic. Seems Cal was a stand up human being.

 

plenty of posts over at ********** , and mbworld . some think the dead guy was partly at fault , you got to be kidding me.

 

For the record, ********** is not blaming the victim. They are pretty universal in their condemnation.

 

A lot of the members on MBWorld put some fault on the victim, not LPower.

 

sorry , i didn't write it clearly , the dudes at mbworld are saying the dead guy was part to blame .

 

The accident happened at a signalized intersection and the deceased was traveling southbound, attempting to make a left turn across the northbound traffic lanes (three wide at that point). It happened at Midday in clear visibility.

I did not read anywhere that the northbound cars which were involved in the collision, ran a red light, so theoretically they had right of way. The Southbound Camaro obviously did not take into account the speed at which the northbound cars were traveling, so regardless of the speed of the northbound cars the Camaro was in the intersection when the northbound cars had right of way.

This is not a judgement on anybody, simply an examination of the circumstances. I believe that the charges leveled against the northbound drivers, 2nd degree murder, will not hold up due to the right of way issue.

 

That is interesting. Maybe so. What about the fact that they were speeding? Could it be argued that if they were not speeding the accident would never have occurred? I wonder how their breaking the law (speeding) will affect the case? Will be interesting, to say the least, to find out how this all plays out.

Either way, it sure is tragic.

 

I agree.

But, of course, they were (likely) racing and (certainly) excessively speeding, so they're going to be convicted of something - at the very least, something like careless driving involving death. I'd be surprised if either driver got jail time (provided it was their first offense), but significant probation and loss of licenses is practically assured.

 

The problem with this kind of situation is that, absent an official speed measuring device such as a radar gun, there is no proof that they were speeding. Eyewitness accounts are meaningless in court as they have no validity with regard to actual verifiable speed. I would bet that the lawyers for both men might cop to some excessive speed charges but they will place blame for the accident itself on the driver who turned his car in front of them. This has consequences beyond the crash, as the estate of the deceased will have no claim against the two drivers who technically had the right of way.

 

Aren't there skid marks, black boxes in vehicles, and such. Accident reconstruction will give a good account of what happened. As to the guy pulling out, you look over to make sure the coast is clear and the cars are waaaaay back there, plenty plenty of time. Then when you pull out, they hit you. A reasonable person would not assume the dudes are traveling at 25++ over the speed limit. That's 50+% over the speed limit. And that +25 estimate is probably slower than they were actually going.

 

+1

I'm sure based on amount of damage, travel following the crash, skid marks, any vehicle data recorders... you can find out at least with some certainty the speeds in this accident. I think everyone would be surprised if these guys walked completely. The judge gave them $25,000 bond, relatively high under these circumstances, which suggests that there's some legal basis for these charges.

 

where the two are totally skrewed is in who they killed. The person who died was a state representative. Thats going to get them. However, the man was thrown from his car. This would likely (not definetly) mean that he wasn't wearing his seatbelt. This will come up in the man slaughter charges. Also, those vehicle recorders can usually only be accessed by the manufacturer. The manufacturer sometimes will only crack those things open when people are trying to hold the manufcaturer at fault. I do know that Mercedes does do this. I have been told by Mercedes technicians that those recorders can only be read by a special computer that the manufacture and only the manufacture has.

I guess we will see where this goes...

 

not to be a sour puss, but the camaro was supposed to be a 70-72 and may have only had lap belts as per the law then , and not shoulder straps as we are used to. 73 is when the shoulder straps were federal law. i am not really sure what year the car was, just what i have picked up here and there.

the whole situation is terrible, for all the families involved.

 

why is it that common sense never prevails for you guys over there ? if they weren't speeding , they wouldn't of hit this guy . check the photos on ********** , and tell me how the skids marks are made without speeding ? they are ****ed , and rightly so .

http://www.**********.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28315

 

I love when we get informed comment like this from the good old outback, 10,000 miles away from where this happened.
Is there no rule of law in Australia? It's just "off with their heads! They were speeding!" is it?

This thread is simply examining the circumstances around the accident -not passing unequivocal judgement, especially without benefit of the facts.
The facts that we know are that the Camaro was in the intersection when there were oncoming cars that had the legal right of way. The cars were most likely speeding, but there is no evidence to show that the Camaro didn't suddenly enter the intersection right in front of the two cars that hit him. That road is a posted 45 MPH speed limit road and the police will not prosecute anyone speeding up to 55MPH, therefore the traffic there routinely moves at that speed. If the Camaro suddenly moved in to the intersection in front of cars traveling at 55MPH much the same outcome could be expected as actually happened. Skid marks would ensue and the damage of cars impacting at 55MPH is immense.
It happened at midday, in good weather with certainly unlimited visibility and the Camaro occupant was ejected, meaning he was likely not wearing seatbelts. All of these facts will provide an excellent basis for the defense team when it comes to apportioning blame.

I'm not defending the two drivers. I think speeding on major public roads is asinine, but the legal system requires a heavy burden of proof to find someone criminally guilty of a capital offense and marginally less in a civil responsibility action. Either way the fact that the deceased was a former public elected official will bring more pressure on the prosecutors to do something, but at the end of the day the law will prevail on the facts, not the emotion of a 76 year old man seemingly murdered by two racing hooligans.

 

and there's no where else i'd rather live , because **** like this happens , and everyone is looking for a bull**** excuse . you're missing the point , if 2 cars don't speed , the guy crosses the street , nothing happens , life goes on.

 

I'm sure accidents never happen in Australia and no-one ever speeds. Utopia is finally discovered. Gimme a break!

 

Ignoring the "down under" issue, I think that it would be quite easy for a crash detective to determine how fast the 2 cars were going. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that if these guys were doing over 70MPH, they're going to be at fault for the accident. If you drive without insurance, and get hit by someone, you can't sue that person because you shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. If you were following the law the accident would have never happened.

We'll see though! You never know with things like this.

 

**** happens here too mate , but for now , at least , common sense prevails most of the time . unfortunately australia is heading down the same path as america on legal issues , example , like suing the gun for killing someone , not the person pulling the trigger LOL .

 

Yes, because Australia sets such a stellar example of perfection in the criminal justice system:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/12/australia.rape/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,20582176-5005369,00.html
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1972413.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/stories/s1491941.htm

Nowhere is perfect. Nearly everywhere, including the U.S., common sense prevails "most of the time." Let's let all the facts come out on this one before rushing to judgement and implying that the justice system is flawed, scud. These two men haven't even been tried yet, and you're already up in arms that they'll be acquitted.

 

In NSW Australia if you get caught street racing you are fncked, simple as that. They will now take the car off you (even if not involved in an accident) and crush it.

Australia is quite rightly saying NO to street racing wankers.

I don't have a problem at all with speeding, but if you want to race somebody ... take it to a track.

RIP the victim of STREET racing. Street racing will soon ensure we all LOOSE the ability to control our own vehicles, to be replaced by some sort of computer, etc. Thanks wankers, fncken thanks.
Pete
BTW: Just about anything to do with Aboriginals in Australia is screwed up, so yes Doug are right to bring that point up. I wasn't born here ... but I'm still continually embarrassed ...

 

too much time on your hands mate to be digging through the web for dirt on aussies . i wonder when the thread about it on mbworld , which is now closed , will be moved to the "kill section "? ( i can't believe there is one , go look for yourself ) . egg will be on a lot of faces if the fuzz works out the speed of these wankers was close to 100 . they're ****ed because they probably don't know each other , and they may have different stories to cover their arses , which in turn ****s it up for them even further. i'll say it again , if they hadn't of been speeding , this guy may still be alive . check out some of the photos of the crash scene , there is **** everywhere .

 

I agree, albeit with less conviction, with most of what you're saying. However, do be careful to label this incident 'street racing' right off the bat. While original news reports alleged street racing, interestingly later ones left out the words entirely. Based on the distance between the prior intersection and the one where the accident occurred, both vehicles could have easily achieved speeds well over 90mph, yet most reports place their speeds at 'up to 70mph,' indicating they were not going full speed, which would seem to discount the 'street racing' theory. Also, while the speed limit here is 45mph, many locals on various forums have indicated that speeds of around 60mph are standard fare for the road (three lanes in either direction), meaning speeds of 'up to 70mph' would have been possible (though unquestionably irresponsible) without street racing.

With that said, based on the two vehicles involved, the charges brought by the prosecutor, and inductive reasoning due to the E63 driver's posting history on mbworld, my own personal opinion dictates that the vehicles were racing and only impacted the Camaro at 70mph or less after heavy braking down from triple-digit speeds. But that's my own personal opinion, and it's important in cases like this to not rush to judgement, and to allow the system time to sort out the truth.

 

Yeah, well if this guy had been a better judge of closing speed, or had not chosen that time and place to make his turn, or made the turn quicker, or done this or done that, then also he would be alive. If he had chosen to obey the law and actually give way to those who had the right of way, like he was supposed to, he would be alive. If those guys had better brakes, if he had better acceleration, if this, if that. WTF?!

Talk is cheap. You and your 'roo bars don't have all the answers... mate.