Challenge Car Values

I have been trying to track values of Challenge cars particularly the 355s and 360s as I have been considering a purchase of such a car in the future. In addition to an occassional 360 Ch for sale on ebay and at some dealerships, I have done a search on this site and got some data points: $50K-$65K for 355 Ch and $80K-$110K for 360 Ch. However, I believe these are asking prices and I wonder if folks on this site can provide some actual sale prices (as opposed to asking prices). If so, I welcome some other data points.

Also, I would welcome your opinions/insights on the price trends of these cars. For example, it seems that we are now seeing street 360s going for as low as $80K, I wonder if the Challenge low end price is now somewhere below this amount.

Lastly, although this is equivalent to predicting the future, any thoughts on ultimately the 355 Ch's and 360 Ch's bottom price ranges (I mention range as I do understand that cars are in various conditions) would also be appreciated.

 

Claudio,

Because there is a smaller market for Challenge cars it's impossible to predict when values will hit rock bottom. Most Challenge cars come with no history of service, are expensive to repair when major items fails (not any more than street cars but more likely to need an engine or tranny rebuild), and have extensive crash damage.

The 50-60K price range you reference to for 355's was what they were at three years ago when I sold my 355 Challenge. I can't imagine they haven't fallen further since. I recently know of a decent 348 Challenge that sold for 21K. This car has some service records and was a true "race" challenge car with all the extra goodies. Hard to believe you can buy such a track ready car for the price of Honda Civic.

I wouldn't worry much about future value as it will likely never be worth more than what you paid unless you throw in a completely new or rebuilt motor and trans and that alone on a 348/355 could be well more than what you paid for the car.

There is literally no market for these cars anymore.

 

I purchased my first 360 Challenge car for $80k and sold it for $85k after putting about $8k into it to fix a few minor things and give it an inexpensive repaint. My second 360 Challenge car had body damage (no frame damage) and was mechanically sound and I bought that car for $60k. Put about $18k into the car fixing the body damage and also giving it an inexpensive repaint. Sold it for $80k. Both cars were running and in good condition when they sold so that tells you that they can be had for in the $80k range.

As Jon indicated there is really no set value. You can assume that ALL the cars have had damage to some degree at some point. The question is ... how much damage, how it was repaired, and the mechanical condition of the car. As is the case with all Ferraris the mechanicals can kill you financially if something is not right. Check the brakes, condition of the rotors, etc. All pricey parts!

 

Jeff,

do you buy and sell these cars? Keep me in mind. I came close to a gt3 cup and just missed a 360C for 60K. Good thing my stockmarket timing is better than my car buying.

 

I actually bought the first one as a personal track car and happened to come across the second one by chance a few months later and bought it since it was a good deal. Only intended to keep one as a track car and sell the other. Ended up selling both as I decided that I wasn't going to do as many track days as I originally planned to do. Wasn't worth have a $80k track car for occasional use.

 

Martin at Cavallino Motors in Miami actually sells "used" Challenge cars. He is active on FChat, look for him in the Florida section as cavallinomotors. Last week he had 3-4 of them in his showroom, 2 were in a Highway Patrol escort for a north Miami charity (has to be incredible to drive a challenge car on an interstate with a blue light highway patrol escort). And he is very honest about the cars' condition. I trust him explicitally.

 

Thanks for the responses. The prices mentioned so far seem to indicate lower price points at this time.

Actually, I have had a chance to talk with Martin at Cavallino Motor a couple of months ago and he seemed, indeed, very helpful and straighforward with me.

I did notice Ch cars being in the market for over 60 days at certain prices (including, I believe, some of Martin's cars) and so I was thinking that the market price points are significantly lower than the advertised asking prices.

I can't help but compare the market trend of such outdated race cars similar to the old race car trends in the 60's and early 70's. Now, such vintage race cars are of higher value than their production model counterparts. Of course, the big difference may lie in the fact that today's vintage cars have higher levels of race provenance i.e. professional drivers and race series than the Challenge series. Havings said this, the Challenge cars being considered factory race cars can be worth something someday...Perhaps, the values are such that they may eventually (who knows when...) be more valuable than the street production counterparts i.e. more collectible. Just some of my thoughts...

 

Driving a Challenge car (at least a 360 Challenge car) on the street has to be one of the WORST driving experiences you could ever imagine! I did it a few times and there was absolutely nothing spectacular or incredible about it. The cars are set up for the track which means that they are HARD, NOISY, JERKY, and sound like they are going to rattle apart. Imagine the worst creak and rattle in your regular Ferrari and multiply that by 100!

 

If you are thinking about a Challenge car as an investment; well, perhaps I could interest you in some Florida real estate next to Martin.

Ain't gonna happen. Why? Simple, Challenge cars are street cars that are modified for the track. THEY ARE NOT RACE CARS.

The last production Ferrari that can lay any sort of real claim to a race car is the Boxer. (Okay, okay, maybe the 288 GTO can claim to be a race car, even though it was never raced) Sorry, if this busts your bubble, but this is true. Even the F40 is nuthin more than hot rod street car.

Now, if you are looking for a fantastic track car, sing on brother. This Bud is for you.

Dale

 

As pointed out, the 355 and 360 are not really race cars UNLESS you are referring to a modern Ferrari that was used within the ALMS or other 'professionally recognized' series (Ferrari Challenge DOES NOT count by a longshot).

Exactly, it is rarity and to perhaps a higher extent provenance. So forget 355 and 360, no one of legendary status drove them in a 'real' race as best i can recall. You need to think ALMS for modern or 'proper' vintage car (pre 1970).

Not gonna happen UNLESS someone famous drive the car IN A SANCTIONED RACE (not Ferrari Challenge) and won a race (or better still, races plural and won the series title). If you think a 355 or 360 will gain in value you may be very much mistaken and setting yourself for a huge financial loss. Have been following what you are seeking and to some extent understand what you are trying to do. Sadly, forget Ferrari unless you purchase (am not saying 'invest') in a real vintage race car, with provenance, in excellent condition.

Believe me, hundreds of guys have tried to do what you are thinking... and still do each year. Seek true vintage or forget it is my opinion. Even as a fun day track car the 355 and 360 are wasted money imo as you can do much better, or nearly so, for much less cost of purchase and operational costs. But then it is true, they are not Ferrari cars so logic is damed and emotions take over as will the possible draining of your wallet.

 

+1 and there is no place a 348/355/360 competes in with NASA or SCCA and does not get killed by the competition. Ferraris are just not competetive in their classes. If you race unlimited there is no way to beat the porsches with 40 years of chassis development and goobs of over the counter race parts nor the vettes with nearly as much support as the Porsches.

Steve...1/13/08..WSIR with AROSC.org Are we going to get to see the dallara?

 

I certainly wouldn't go as far as considering a Challenge car as a financial investment. As many has pointed out on this site, a vast majority of cars are not investments and there are much better ways to build wealth than collectible cars.

As a car enthusiast/collector, a big part of the fun for me is enjoying cars I like in terms of looks, provenance, performance, driving feel, emotional affinity and associated lifestyle i.e. comraderie, racing. Having said this, costs such as depreciation and resale value are consideration factors for me. While I do not expect zero depreciation or even appreciation, I would like costs to be minimal while still enjoying cars as per factors already mentioned. Hence, in my search for a track car and consideration of Challenge cars, I'm factoring all these items in my purchase timing decision.

I do appreciate folks giving me their insights on Challenge cars including marketability.

 

I do agree that race cars with higher provenance i.e. real vintage race cars, ALMS cars would have a much better chance of gaining/maintaining value. In addition to the Ch cars, those are also under consideration in my search for a track car, but the ones I like seem to be outside my alloted purchase budget (outside operation and maintenance budget) at this time. Perhaps, I just need to be more patient.

Another consideration I have not mentioned previously are already-prepared track cars (where somebody else has spent the money to build the car). This may fulfill my desire to get seat time prior to being able to comfortably buy a proper vintage or modern race car.

As a mostly lurker and once-in-a-while poster, I recall reading about your track experiences i.e. modified 308 QV (I currently own a Euro QV by the way) to an open wheel car. I have had a similar experience starting in the early 90's; I had a 69 911S (wish I still had that car based on its value increase) and built it as a track car. I was lucky to have only lost $5K when I sold it; it was definitely worth it for the enjoyment I got out of it. I also tracked a 911SC before I discovered mid-engine car dynamics via Formula Fords, Formula Mazdas and a one-time-almost-religious experience with a 900 hp Mercedes-powered Reynard Champ car. To some extent, I would imagine you are enjoying this as well with your formula car.

Anyway, I promised myself that I wouldn't build a track car again and would only buy already-prepared race cars or factory race cars. Nowadays, after ten years of being away from doing any significant track driving, I desire to get back into it. One difference is that now I'm not necessarily into going for all out speed. I just want to get some seat time in a car that I would enjoy owning as per my criteria mentioned in my previous post, which brings me back to the Challenge car and proper/vintage car considerations.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Challenge cars as well as validating my thoughts on "proper" race cars.

 

The words minimal costs and Ferrari Challenge can't be used in the same sentence. If you running parade laps and doing a few track days maybe but consider that a full engine rebuild is going to be at least 30K and up, a gearbox rebuild starts at 7k but on average the ones I've seen are closer to 10K.

There are guys out there at FCA events that swear you can get a half a season out of some slicks and maybe four or five weekends out of a set of rotors. They are simply doing parade laps. I finally sold my 355 C for a number of reason's one of them being the cost per day to run the car. I ran into the same problem the racers did who campaigned them at Challenge races. The 355 C went through brakes in less than a weekend.

People will give you sixteen zillion alternatives on the brakes, all of which I tried and none of which work as well as the original Brembo rotors. The Challenge racers had to manage their brakes the first day or so and by the end of the weekend's last race they were shot. Same with the D3 PZero's. They had great grip for about 6-8 heat cycles then went away completely. Early on I too could get decent life out of the rotors and tires but as I got faster (eventually matched most of the Challenge lap times) I wore through them just as fast and it was costing $1500 and up per day to run the car.

I did start using Grand Am scrub tires as a way to limit costs but in the end it was just too expensive.

These cars are not cheap to maintain from my perspective. I know Rob Lay, will likely chime in with his view that they aren't expensive but that's not what experienced.

 

I love jumping into these kinda threads and post a bunch of info...but everyone else has pretty much answered your questions. I dont have much to add except to agree with just about everything said.

- The prices Ive seen are 80k-110k for a 360C. They are asking and at that price I am not buying (yes I am looking)

- yes 360Cs are expensive to maintain and I would never consider getting one for an investment

 

This probably should be the quote of the month!

If you changed it to, "The words minimal costs and FERRARI can't be used in the same sentence," it would be the quote of the year.

Dale

 

I echo your opinion. Although I have not bought from Martin I did a PDI on one of his cars to find it was as he said, no better and no worse. You cannot ask for more.

I also follow this market and generally see the 355s in the 50 to 65 plus range depending on where they are in their maintenance and equipment. Similarly the 360s do not seem to have dropped below 100 for usable race ready cars. But there is more than just the car to buying one of these. The 355s cannot run in SCCA (even ITE) without replacing their FIA cages. Then you need at least a spare set of wheels and tires and since Pirelli makes race slicks for these sizes its really giving up a lot to run DOT tires when slicks are so good. In addition and I know that few F chatters would consider this issue, but you need a set of rain tires as well. After all you cannot begin to understand how to drive a race car until you can do it quickly and safely in the rain and what is the point of owning a race car that you cannot or are unwilling to drive in the rain. Snow ... need a Group B for that but when track temps fall below 40 deg F I consider that more difficult than rain in Summer. But to keep the Challenge "thing" going, its also hard to find original spec wheels which are not necessarily needed to compete but are usually the easiest to use.

 

I agree with most of the post above. I own a 355 ch. I considered a 360 Ch. A good 355 can be had in the $50-$65 price range. I think a well sorted 360 can be bought for $80 to $100 range. Warning! Be prepared to spend money on a race car. You can spend $10K in a heartbeat. They are not cheap cars. Mine is just a toy for track days. Call Martin. He has both for sale. He is very knowledgeable.

 

Amen, enjoyment for $5k is 'cheap beans per se in this field of fun and experience. Only lost $5k, my friend, you did VERY WELL for such a small loss. FYI: asked the new owner of my previous 308 to never, EVER under ANY circumstances EVER tell me what the 2+ inches of receipts add up to. On a Ferrari, $5k only gets you a race clutch and lightweight flywheel for a 308.

Amen. This is one of the reasons why i decided to go with the F2000. Cost containment...

...plus the ability to further my driver/engineering education AND easy of tweaking/fixing/etc. Have spent more time than i dare to mention working/maintainin the 308. Fixing/working on the open wheel car is sooooooooooooooo much easier than the closed wheel car that thing that take 2 hous on the 308 take about 15 minutes on the F2000.

 

Good article in Sports Car Market magazine this month titled " I want a Ferrari race car". Check it out. It covers every Ferrari race car from a 308 to an F1 car. Talks about the pro's and con's.

 

Today's Challenge cars (348, 355, 360) will NEVER be considered in the same league as vintage race cars from an investment standpoint. Realistically speaking - as many have already indicated - they are simply NOT collectibles and simply ARE expensive toys.

- Buy one to enjoy at track events and to have a FERRARI as your track car!
- Be prepared to spend significant money on maintenance and upkeep (plus the truck and trailer to get it there).
- Don't consider it an investment of any kind ... it's more of a big black hole ...

If you can afford it ... it's a bunch of fun. If you can't afford it ... buy something like a Lotus Elise or Exige. You can drive it to and from the track and maintenance will be a fraction of the cost.

 

Yup.

And be passed by the Vettes and many other cars at significanty lower initial and TCO. But yeah, the Ferrari is fun and sounds nice. Too bad they are so $$$ to get parts for, to maintain, and to fix.

Oh yeah, amen.

Am sure there is some sexual joke i could make here...

i'd debate the Lotus on the cost of the body parts. The front clip is $5k+ and they tend to easily break from what i have seen at track events. As small and fragile as they are, the main structure does seem to hold up well as saw one go through the WGI turn 12 'blender' 2 years ago. Car was totalled beyond belief yet the driver was ok. Mechanically, they are impressive and cheap to maintain.

A used Vette is inexpensive and parts are a dime a dozen and just about every corner auto parts store has what you probably need. Blew me away when i heard that vette brake rotors are a mere $30 and the price of others parts are amazingly inexpensive. Hell, why rebuild the motor when you can get crate engines or decent pulls for only a few $k.

Apologies for constantly saying the Vette for closed wheel car, yet what i have seen at HPDE and SCCA events the Vette is hard to beat for the money... and on the track. Also, TCO might want to be factored in and for the money, performance of a Vette... welll... see the vettes (GT1) pass the Ferraris (GT2) at ALMS races time and time and time again. If i drove a Ferrari as a pro guy and the Vettes kept passing me, well...

 

Me, I'm leaning toward the Skippy Fly and Drive series in the MX-5 Miata when it kicks off. Paying by the weekend might sound expensive, but it sure sounds like it is cheaper than ownership.

I also have started renting a SRF for local track days. For $900, I get the car, tires, gas, hell I even get lunch.

The guy I rent from has a Radical on order. Sounds like it might be more fun than the law allows!

Dale

 

What do you want to do in the grand sceme of things. Race or be a track day junkie? They are two TOTALLY different things. Racing with Skippy might be cheaper on the onset, but you really have to bring your A game and your wallet when you people start banging into you.
Since you brought up the SRF, THAT would be the car to race. NO they're not fast but they corner and brake better than the Ferrari or the MX-5 when race prepped. You can buy one for $15-18k, race it for a year, and sell it for the same if not more than what you bought it for. Crash damage is very cheap, relatively speaking. You could take off a corner or even the entire front end and it wouldn't cost you more than a couple grand. And you'll be a much better driver for it. Much more than doing track days in a Ferrari. People who can be fast in a low power, good handling "momentum" car can be fast in a high power car. But typically, not the other way around.

EDIT..... After posting I realized I was combining people and posts. Sorry. But I'll leave this up as aside from the first few sentences it still applies.

 

If you think 360C's are expensive to run, you should try a factory GT car. Last time I looked, Michelotto charged circa $90k US for an engine rebuild. A "refresh" was around $40k. Engine is "lifed" at 4000 km's

I don't use mine too much; but boy is it fun when I do.
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