I'm not normally a huge fan of wheel color matching the car color, I like some contrast...however that car does look very nice the way it is...
Come on guys....Its winter time. Spiders are strong in spring/summer. Lets all use common sense here. F430 coupes are selling strong right now, go figure. The F430 in general is probably the best all around car ever built and anyone that drives one wants one. That alone will keep the market strong unit something new comes along. Way too much hype up or down on f-chat. We need hype patrol
PFB, Not so much a challenge, but a question. When the subprime fiasco hit followed by the slowing housing market we saw that the uber home market was not affected. In fact, strong as ever. 20MM+ homes still sell briskly, as the people buying these homes (i) are not subprime borrowers, (ii) pay cash, and either (iii) aren't the subprime note holders (i.e., are not directly affected by the fallout), or (iv) if affected are still positioned well enough that a high dollar home can still be purchsed with confidence, with cash. So, let's say the CC crunch hits. It should. Many people are morons; easy credit does not mean you have a license to abuse it. Anyway, folks with a ton of cash in the bank and a steady high dollar income, generally through their investments rather than sweat labor, would seem to me to be immune to the crunch when it hits. I fail to see how the next financial fallout will necessarily effect the average 430 buyer. OTOH, when it hits, all the wallyworld frenquent fliers may find themselves in dollar stores.
Presumably no wife and kids...Then "crazy" is an open question. As long as you are spending your money and not (later) coming to me (subprime fiasco and credit card debt approaching $950 Billion are example of overstepping boundaries), do what you want (I am not in charge). With that said, you are flirting with disaster. Best
If you think the "average" 430 buyer can afford a $20million home, you might want to review this board (all posts) about how many have "garage queens" worrying about resale. If the AVERAGE Ferrari owner lives in a $5million home, I would be surprised. I guess material for another thread (but doubt if people would want to share this kind of information). Best
Happy new year Seppy and Al... and to your former, and my current, 360 spider. I put a good 80 miles on her today -- top down, sunny 70 degree LA weather. Al, by the time you're ready for your Enzo/599/other, I'll be ready for that three-pedal F430!!!
Happy new year to new and happy eye cutting in 08...from what I hear, you are EYE man in LA...keep up the cutting edge work....seppy
My guess would be that the majority of used Ferrari buyers make 6 figures (or less!) a year. Not sure why that's such a bad thing. If you guys are saying that a Ferrari only depreciates 20-30k after a few years of ownership, that's about the same as a big SUV.
Happy New Year Uday, I see you are still in love with my ex "red-head". Enjoy her in great health. I am on the list for the 430 spider replacement and I hope it is within the next three years. There's about two feet of snow on the ground, so all I can do is look and sit in my 430 spider. Since you bought my car, I added a 2006 M5 and I put Blizzack tires on her and I can drive her in the snow. The M5 is right behind the F cars as fun and a blast to drive. Great family sedan. Your friend, Al LaPeter
((sorry that we're hijacking this thread!!!)) Al, You're lucky that you live in Steve Harris Imports' area -- here in LA, getting a car at MSRP... well, you know. I had a very good experience from Sean Harris -- a class act. I think that I can wait three years for your F430spider The M5 is a great car. I was trying to decide between getting an M5 or an M3 for a daily driver. The M5 is a beast with a ton of power (it felt faster than my 360), but the M3 convertible was just so much fun to drive, especially here in LA. So here's what I picked up: Image Unavailable, Please Login
It's winter, that's why. If you want one do it now because come spring this will change as it does every year.
I think you are way off the mark here. People that collect Rolexes and buy F430s do not really care about the housing market. With rare exception they are not the ones upside down in their houses. Nice thought though. I wouldn't hold my breath.
That's not what I'm trying to state at all. I doubt the avg 430 buyer can buy a 20MM home. My point is that, just as with the subprime meltdown, I question whether a CC meltdown would affect resale of a 200k Fcar. There's a lot of baby boomer cash out there unspent, an aging segment of the population not affected by the subprime/cc meltdown other than choosing a savvy manager who has the ability to make money in bear markets.
I stand corrected regarding misundertanding your point. However, respectfully, I see things differently. As a result of financial conditions, increasing numbers of Ferrari's are hitting the market. High inventory means low pricing, for (unemotional) buyers. Those who had to have a Ferrari and now forced to sell are different than these (come lately) buyers. Best
I think that anyone who thinks this sub-prime mess is only going to affect the person who's house is foreclosed on is WAY off the mark. Lets look at the situation right now. All those mortgage brokers making $500K and up - game over. No Ferrari's for you. All the house flippers - game over. No Ferrari's for you. All the Real Estate agents - not such a good time for you either. IB/Private Equity business is down - no easy money to do M&A. Not so many IPO's as last year either (I would think). Layoffs at some of the IB firms. And on and on and on. People building condo buildings etc. People supplying the building industry. General Contractors etc. No easy money there either. I could spend the whole night on a list. Sure there is still a lot of money out there. And there are people still making a lot of money. And there are boomers with money chests. But the easy money days are over for a while. So there were many people that weren't over the top rich that suddenly could buy a F430 over the last 2,3 years. Mortgage Brokers etc. Now they are out of the market so OVERALL demand goes down. And in the $150K to $250K car segment, there are many choices now. F430's will see some downward price pressue - IMHO. If you are in the market for an F40 or an F50, or a $5M - $10M house, or a rare piece of art - thats a whole different story. That market is still strong as the truly wealthy are not affected by the ups and the downs. In stead they take advantage of it.
yes, no wife or kids so it's just me. The last one, i put down 100k and had plenty left. This time used a HELOC for down payment..... so big deal, pymnts are cheap and if anything ever goes horribly wrong, its a car that I can get out of IMMEDIATELY and have cash left for me.... So I get to LIVE now and not worry about saving 6M so I can buy it cash. F waiting for anything in life, do what makes you happy in the NOW. Honestly, I would much rather know that I drove these cars and enjoyed my life even if I lose it all tomorrow.... to me, its better than never having done the things I did and have the things I have. It will never happen though, because money is too easy to make for motivated people with desire.
I will respond to the questions and statements, but let me start with this . . . To coin a Phrase "They all count." In high school (many years ago), we had a track meet at a nearby school. This was a non-conference event, so it did not affect our conference standing. We got our clocks cleaned by a much bigger school. On the bus on the way home, our coach raked us bad, then asked a guy named Dwayne to say a quick prayer (this is the south and we still pray at athletic events). Dwayne said a nice prayer and said something like this . . . "God please help us in our conference meets, where they 'really' count." The coach thanked Dwayne for a nice prayer and then added, "But Dwayne, THEY ALL COUNT." That was over 20 years ago, but my brother and I still quote the coach. And, it is true, they all do count. In terms of the super wealthy who buy $20 million houses, one point is this--most people who buy houses like this are extremely competitive in business--otherwise they would not be successful (ignoring inheritance). Competitve people want to find "deals" and they can't bear paying $20 million for a house, when only $17.5 would have bought it. I get the point that some extremely wealthy people are not affected, but I can name at least 5 guys who had over $500 million when the tech crash hit--and all have lost almost everything. To try to protect some "innocent" check the company Inktomi (symbol INKT). One guy there, initials RG had over $600 million in stock and for 2 years running purchased the most expensive house in Atlanta. Since, he has filed bankruptcy. Check a guy named Bill Gilliam--who once did a deal called Rexene and made over $100 million,. Soon he was on the cover of a newspaper with the title "Divorce--Wall Street Style." He and his partners got mad and split and BG lost it all. I can give you a lot of isolated incidents where people who can buy $20 million houses have lost it but that is not the point--because you can show me a new Athlete, who replaces him. My point is the guy that Gordon Gekko describes . . . "guys making $750K (I have adjusted for inflation) a year and flying first class." (Assume $550 K in salary and $200K bonus.) These guys start by paying about $225K a year in taxes. They then have incidentals (food, vacations, etc.) that knock them back another $100K. They have insurance and taxes on homes and families or girlfriends and entertainment and stuff which kick back another $125K. We are now down to $300K disposable. Let's take $50K for retirement, and call it $125K in mortgage or living expenses. We are now down to $125K in leftover. At this rate, it takes 2 to 3 years to pay cash for a 430 spyder. So, they borrow. Now, let's say the subprime or credit crunch or something causes them to miss the $200K bonus, or heaven forbid--lose their job. If even out of work for only 3 months or if the new job pays less, they are upside down. I know, I know, how do you go broke on $750K a year. Ask Sherman McCoy. Look, no man is an island--and cliches aside--they all count. Our economy is fragile right now. And prices will decline. But we don't live in a vacuum, and--TO ME--understanding these things is important. And, knowing value is important. And, being proactive is important--again, to me. It may not matter to you. But it is important to me. Why do you think that when China sneezes the world catches cold--because they all count. If you don't want to know this or if you don't care about it, that's OK. But, for those of us who seek to know 'why,' it is important. OK. Enough . . . I see prices falling for the reasons I have written. Hold me to this--let's revisit this again in June.
PFB, I'm certainly not trying to be a contrarian, just wanting a bit more depth of explanation. For me, I *hope* 430s nosedive as you've explained. I was on the verge just before Xmas of picking up a nice red/tan 430 with ceramics and high-ish miles for 195k. Ultimately, I decided to put the money into a proper investment and revisit things in the fall of 08. I've had one ferrari and a few nice pcars, so the itch to have a 430 today is not excessive; I can wait. Cheers.
I totally agree - kinda what I was trying to say above. But not as eloquently. Its not just the guy who lost his house in a foreclosure that is getting hit. I will certainly be checking back in 6 months.. Best
"My point is the guy that Gordon Gekko describes . . . "guys making $750K (I have adjusted for inflation) a year and flying first class." (Assume $550 K in salary and $200K bonus.) These guys start by paying about $225K a year in taxes. They then have incidentals (food, vacations, etc.) that knock them back another $100K. They have insurance and taxes on homes and families or girlfriends and entertainment and stuff which kick back another $125K. We are now down to $300K disposable. Let's take $50K for retirement, and call it $125K in mortgage or living expenses. We are now down to $125K in leftover. At this rate, it takes 2 to 3 years to pay cash for a 430 spyder. So, they borrow. Now, let's say the subprime or credit crunch or something causes them to miss the $200K bonus, or heaven forbid--lose their job. If even out of work for only 3 months or if the new job pays less, they are upside down. I know, I know, how do you go broke on $750K a year. Ask Sherman McCoy." Very true yet at the same time very disturbing.
True, but you can get those six months in a Ferrari bought wisely. It may very well save you $50K or maybe $25K in after-tax money, depending on various factors (economy, most importantly). As posted earlier, I don't know too many wealthy people who wouldn't take the opportunity to save $25K on a given product. I think we're just now seeing all the froth -- the 'gotta have it first' premium -- burn away and over the next year or two we'll the normal inflection where supply passes demand, now that all the 'flipping' is done for this model. Totally normal and healthy. I suppose if you're driving a rusted out Nissan Sentra and living in abject misery every time the garage door opens, then yeah, do something now. But the 360 seems like a much smarter buy right now. In the real world, on public roads, people can't tell a 360 from an F430 anyway.
This discussion, a bit off topic, is very important. Always watch debt as well as income if you want to sleep at night. It is sometimes less important how much you earn than how much you spend. Unfortunately, for some, as they make more money, they find themselves on the lower tier of the next level of wealth and feel "poor" again. As a result they overspend, trying to feel better. Unlike those safely situated (higher tier) and who can afford a "bump" in the road, the newly initiated get knocked out of the game. I have witnessed many who spend more than they earn. In there lies the danger. I have said it before, but worth repeating - happiness comes from relationships and pleasure form things - too many confuse the two, trying to make up for a lack of the former by investing too much in the latter. The "price" of a Ferrari is the least of our worries. Best
