Wow, 3 inches forward and 3 inches down is a lot!!! Excellent! Just don't forget that at some point in time you'll want to service the engine. Be sure to leave some room for that!
It a lot. I don't know how much the forward part helps, but the down part has got to be good. It doesn't appear to make servicing anything more difficult, but it makes more work for me right now when I'm already in overload.... hate to take on the extra work, but I know I'll be kicking myself later if I don't....so I guess down the engine goes. It looks like the problem/work start to go up exponentially as I hit the 2.5"-3" drop point, I'll spend a little more time looking at it before I decide, but most likely I'll stop right there and make no effort at a 4" drop.
that or "Let's see....what kind of foolishness can I come up with today" Years ago when I was in the air force I got called into the 1st Sargents office (the guy in charge of discipline) and we says Mark, why is it that each and every time I feel I need to ask whos stupid idea was this!, the same name keeps coming up over and over and over. Some things never change I guess.
I know the feeling. Spent 10 years on building my plane. They I started another one. Now that that one is nearly finished, some upgrades to plane #1 are next. Then there is the Dino which needs the window mechanisms rebuilt, suspension part replaced, etc. Then there is the new house that we've bought that needs a new kitchen, bathroom, bedroom. Then there is that garage that I am purchasing for the Dino that needs floor, walls, heating, lift, etc. Did I mention that I have a girlfriend, kid and fulltime job. no time to sleep!!!
I spent most of the day pondering what my plan should be. I think Ive got one that will work without requiring a ton of work from me. If I just dont get greedy about how far I drop the engine I think it works. I can drop it about 2.5 and forward a bit over 2.5 then simply rotate the bell/drop gear housing. I need to adapt the engine and bell housing anyway so its no extra work to rotate the pattern. There is a little extra work to correct the bolts and second trans shaft locations so it fits back on the trans, but that look pretty straight forward. The other thing is Im not certain the standard diameter flywheel will clear the frame. I may need to use a reduced diameter, which is fine, but I was worried about getting a starter touched in tight enough to engage it. The solution I found is a compact (and very light weight) gear reduction starter that tucks in tight enough to work with a flywheel as small as 10 I think. This particular one is off a harley, but they are also commonly sold for chevys and fords. Now that I have a plan, maybe Ill actually DO something tomorrow. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
dodge also uses a similar starter on their 318's in the late eighties and ninties. Looking good, keep the pics coming! I might actually get my 308 done before you, lol. Cant wait to see the headers.
Not to highjack Marks "Great Thread" ............. but when did Hans get off the "singles market"?? Mark, great work!
Check aftermarket competition catalogues like Jeg's for small reduction type starters. Drag racers use them alot. Here is a hi-torque mini starter, found on Google, good selection, http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Starter%20Motors/ http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Starter%20Motors/Mini%20Hi%20Performance/
Mark, you are really brave to take on such a project. I actually saw in person several times the JRV 308 V12 conversion while he was doing it. I always wondered what changes if any should be done to the suspension?? Thanks for sharing this project please keep the pics coming!!
I think my only hope of finishing before you is if you get distracted by your new boxer cams. The header are going to be a real chore. The set I did for the fiadillac took me 40 hour I think. But that was before I knew the header secret....appearently the foam floatly pool things are about primary tube diameter. You cut them to length and stuff a piece of heavy wire inside it so it will hold it's shape and you can have a set of headers with exactly equally length tubes laid out in a couple hours then you get to do all the welding on the bench instead of trying to tack everything in the car. I'm probably 2 months out on the headers I guess.
Brave or foolish...... The 308 is under sprung to begin with so adding 100 lbs to the engine will only make that worse. The goldsmith car was claimed to be lighter when he was done, apparently due to removing the AC and installing an after market exhaust. The engine sits quite high though and the muffler quite low, so even though the total weight may work out, the center of gravity had to have gone up which would induce more body roll. I would expect that to be very similar to what I had with my supercharged engine. I had about 100 of stuff, 50 or 60 lbs mounted up on top of the engine. I never ran that set-up with stock springs in the car, I went to 350F/250R mounted on the stock koni shocks and it was pretty good, but still under sprung I thought, particularly in the rear. I then replace the shocks with Ohlins shocks set up with 450 F/400R springs set to lower the car about an inch and it was good .really good .win the SM2 class at autocrosses good. It could still use heavier anti-sway bars I think, that would be my next change. My case is a little different than the Goldsmith type conversions because Im doing the whole thing a bit different. Im getting the engine a bit more centered right to left, Im moving it forward about 2.5 and moving it lower by about 2.5. Im also thinking the AC compressor (if I keep it) will move from the top corner to the lower corner of the engine. The net effect should be a lower center of gravity than even a stock V8 car. Between the engine move and the lowered suspension, my CG should be a little over 1.5 below stock I think.
I think they call them "pool noodles" or "water noodles".....basically they are pipe insulation in bright colors I guess. They have them in every store in the summer, here's some, but these are a bit large at 2 1/2" OD http://pooltoy.com/casof20nood.html
Mark, I must have missed this earlier in the thread but the engine you are using is out of a 400 right? Do we know how many total 308 V12 conversions there are? 3 or 4? All of the other ones were 365s huh? I cannot remember exactly what engine JRV was using back when I saw that conversion underway in Houston in '89ish. Is this engine that you have more compact and thus does it make it easier to keep the center of gravity lower? This is an absolutely amazing project. You are going to have something really special when you are done that's for sure. I forget was this 308 a total beater before you decided to do the conversion?
Atlantaman is the expert on what's been done in the past, but I think 4 is the number including his and they are all 365s. I know they are all SOHC engines. The 400 engine is very slightly longer than the 365, 0.19” it looks like. The problem is the 400 heads (and thr TR heads I’m using)are DOHC and the exhaust cam on the rear bank will hit the right rear shock if you try to install it the way the 365 SOHC cars were done. The engine has to sit 1” further left in the car to clear. To do that requires some additional work to shorter clutch assembly to keep the drop gears form hitting the inner wheel well. I guess you could simply move the wheel well, but I’ve already installed 10.5” x 18” wheels that rub the wheel well on the other side, so moving it is not an option for me. Lowering the engine can be done with either the 400 or 365, but requires messing with the bell housing among other things and makes the install a little harder to do. I think it will make a better job in the end, but it’s more work. I don’t know if I’d call my car a beater, but it's far from a show car. I was planning to freshen up the supercharged engine and add a bit more power before I got side tracked with the v12. The old engine was making about 520 hp and the plan was to bump it to over 600 at less boost with head and cam work.
Mark: This fascinating reading and worthy of replicating as in the "Gold Plated Porsche" genre. I have no particular skills to complement or offer but one thing I have not seen anyone discuss is the relative sixe and flow of the exhaust and intake manifolds. Audi faced many problems like yours when they created the S1 in 1984 and in the end the EM was heavily compromised to make room for the t/c. To this day that EM is still defined as the gold star in any I5 upgrade because real estate is at a prmium and its very hard to make sharp radii that flow correctly. Similarly making room for cool clean air intake requires complicated plumbing. So as you drop the engine I suspect these issues become more critical but you cannot know that until you start the fabrication. PM me if you need any aerospace grade hoses.
I got no time on sunday and only an hour today, but I made the most of it by sawing a large chuck out of the transaxle case Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I try to keep it interesting I have room for the intake and a decent air box and cold air tubes, the problem will be the front bank exhaust. Now that I've foolishly decided to move the engine forward I don't think I have room to bring the colletors out the passenger side anymore at least not without altering the gas tank. It's looking like I'll end up coming over the top of the bell housing which I dont really like, but Im not sure I have a lot of choice. Ill deal with it once I get the engine fitted to the trans and in its final location. The plan is quad exhaust, made of four 3 into 1 headers flowing to 4 mufflers ..if I can find room.
Maybe you could remove the drivers side gas tank and go left with that front header.That will help S/S weight Dist.
I probably speak for a lot of guys out there who have watched in horror and never said a word, but even I have to admit at this point, Mark, YOUR NUTS No, seriously, gut that gearbox out and bolt it down to that 1 1/2 ton steel table your working on so it dont warp when you start Frankenwelding it. So if I am seeing this properly, your moving the crankshaft centerline forward and down, rolling around the gearbox input shaft, and will rotate the transfer gear housing so it all aligns with the engine in a lowered, more forward position? Have you ever considered running oil lines forward and running a front mounted oil cooler?? Would save on engine compartment real estate getting it out of your way. For exhaust room, you could possibly modify the fuel tanks to a smaller capacity and get enough clearance to squeak your exahust past. Sure would have been nice if you could have just done a "normal" V-12 install, now you went and made the Goldman job look like kids play. Enzo would be very proud of you Mark, very proud. I hope your able to keep at it regularly so it doesnt stagnate. Your rapidly reaching the truly hard part of this project IMHO...the making it work part.
