Hello F-chatters, Im new to the site, and I was hoping to get some of your expert advice. I actually joined a few weeks ago, just to see the pictures in thread where a fellow is building a V12 308. That guy is completely insane in the best possible way. Anyway, I want to solicit your opinions about a car Im considering purchasing, which would be my first Ferrari something Ive dreamed about ever since I can remember. This is it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1980-Ferrari-308GBI_W0QQitemZ170183903490QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item170183903490#mainimage Id prefer a QV, but this might be a good alternative, for the right price (because it meets my two by far most important criteria: red paint and a GTB). I dont suppose any one here is familiar with this car (VIN: 0ZFFA01A4A0031327) or the dealer? Any thoughts on would be a good price for this car, especially considering its due for a service? I havent had a PPI done, but I certainly would before handing over any money. Ferrari of Washington is about 45 minutes from where I live, so I would likely take it there. My impression from this site is that they are pretty well regarded. Any thoughts about them? Also, I took it for a short test drive, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I couldnt help feeling that it could do with a little more hp (ok, maybe Ive been spoiled a bit by my Ducati 748, but still ). I dont think Id want to do any really involved modifications, such as fitting a custom V12, so I was thinking about a program of basically bolt-on upgrades that I could do over 2-3 years, as time and budget allows, such as an exhaust system, upgraded ignition (maybe a coil-on-plug setup?), maybe EFI, and maybe some more aggressive cams (and aside from the engine, 16-17 wheels, bigger brakes and new coilover suspension). Any thoughts on what order I should follow for the engine mods? Would it be possible to fit new cams with the service, and leave the rest of the engine stock? Could I just use the older carb profile, or would something custom be required? Any idea how much a set of 4 cams would cost? Thanks a million for you input, and I must say this is an amazing forum, with a lot of amazing people. JL
Those are some ODD arm rests there, my man! The 1980i marks rather a low point in performance in the 308 range, all other things being equal...the very early cars, or then a QV would be noticibly different, IMO. Take your time shopping, and I constantly refer folks to FCA Monthly Newsletter to shop the classifieds.. A person to person deal is preferable to any used car lot, IMO unless it's a Fcar dealership, which gives you confidence in the purchase. Too often the typical lot tries to make ahuge mark up on a marginal car..
The armrests are part of the stereo system and are made by Z box. Most likely there's a subwoofer box in the passenger footwell (also made by Z box) hidden behind the floor mat. My 308 has these as well and, after some upgrades , sound fantastic.
A very well known local mechanic told me the GTB is the only thing he would buy (he has 2). The GTBs are much more rigid than the GTS's (I own a GTS, and I'm ok with that). This mechanic said that putting a B on the lift, you can still open the doors, the S's cannot due to body flex. The engine and the rest of the car can be modded for more power, better sound, etc., but you can't beat a B for stability (or so I am told). Pictures look nice of the car, get a PPI then drive it like Enzo meant James in Denver
If you need more power, buy an early car or a QV. I suspect the mods you are talking about will cost more than if you bought the car you really want first. Spend the money upfront and you will be much happier in the long run.
No comment on the arm rests. I dont even have a sound system in the cabin, Enzo put a really fancy one in the back of the car for me that came as standard equipment. The CIS 2V cars are controversial. Not a lot of work has been done with them to prove a whole lot, so we have a lot more conjecture than cold hard facts. All that aside, the Porsche crowd and others with CIS have worked around it to good effect, making very significant performance gains. There was one fellow who sadly isnt on Fchat any longer, but he did some playing around with a couple CIS cars. One he put early carb cams into, recalibrated the injection, unplugged the exhaust, among other modifications, and got above the power of a carb car. A guy out east had another car he claimed Kermit helped build, and claimed to be hitting some 270 rwhp if I recall correctly. His car had ported heads and stuff all of which I dont recall now, but it at least shows its possible to get more than 205 HP out of it and keep it looking basically stock. There is another thread running currently, Pizzaman is converting a CIS car to carburetors. An older thread has Russ (snj5) converting a 3.2 Mondial to carbs, that car is fantastic. There are also two or three kits floating around to put a centrifugal blower on one of these cars... In other words there are plenty of other options to keep you away from the V12 mod. And if you look up mk e, the guy with the V12 project, he did a roots type blower on the same car a while back, was making about 500 HP. So basically, the only thing holding you back is time, money and imagination, just like everything else in life.
Another choice for a PPI would be Competizione which is only 5 miles away from the ebay seller's address. http://competizioneracing.com/home.html Buying an Fcar on the cheap can be one of the quickest and most expensive ways to sour a first-time ownership experience. Take your time and enjoy the search.
I'm not too keen on the armrests either. I agree with Artvonne- the real stereo is in the back! When I first saw them, I wondered if they were an option or if they were custom made. xtrmesaleen, do you know if these Z Box speakers were a factory, dealer, or aftermarket installation? Just curious. One of the reasons I want the B is for its greater structural integrity (the other reason is I prefer its aesthetics). Ive heard stories of old British sports cars not being capable of holding their shape on lift with the door open, but Im surprised that a 308 is that bad. Im definitely not looking to get a car on the cheap, and Im not in any hurry its just that this one is local, so I was able to look at it in person, it had really low miles (though that might actually be a bad sign ), and of course Bs dont come up for sale as often as Ss. Basically I need to decide how much the extra performance of the QV is worth in dollar terms. If I was going to change the induction system, Id probably go for an EFI set up. Its more flexible, easy to tune, reliable, and generally less finicky than carbs. A supercharger might be a good option too. Im not looking for 500hp or anything extreme like that, more like 250-270. Of course, all things considered, Id probably be best off to buy a decent CIS 2V car, and spend the money I would save over a QV on some high performance driving classes. Aft all, it has well been said that when modifying a car, the first nut to change is the one behind the wheel. Thanks for your thoughts, and especially for pointing out the other shop in my area Ill definitely check them out.
That's BS, quite a few of the NE Fchat members have GTSes, and Birdman & I both have lifts. At one time or another most of the GTSs have been on one of the lifts. We've NEVER had a problem opening doors, or even noticed the gaps changing due to body flex. One of the members seriously tracked his GTS & body flex was never a big problem. Yes, GTBs are more rigid, but I am saying that the GTSes bodies don't wiggle around like a sheet of paper. If you're going to be competetively tracking your car, say vintage racing, then yes, you probably do want a GTB. But for almost anything else, the GTS is stiff enough to handle quite well.
Can't argue with the tunes coming from the engine, I'll never get tired of hearing that either! I'm not sure who installed them and Z Box has been out of business for some time now. I think these items were installed aftermarket in the mid to late 80s but dealers may have assisted customers looking for audio improvements. They are wrapped in matching vinyl, so some level of collaboration existed. Hope this helps! Good luck in your search!
It's OK for you GTS guys to suffer from stiffness challenges. Admitting you have a problem is the first step. However, Verell is right....we have had lots of GTSs on the lifts and the doors opened just fine. But maybe it was the roof panel holding the car together so it wouldn't sag at both ends. Birdman
Interesting. I've actually witnessed this when I was shopping for my car. 308 QV was on the lift in the shop with all wheels removed for new tires. The doors wouldn't open. The salesman was pretty shook up, couldn't figure out why. The mechanic told him it was because it was on the lift. We tried both doors, neither would open, and the doors weren't locked.
I would generally agree that the GTS is a pretty strong car. Ive been in several, and drove one friends through some very hilly and twisty Wisconsin countryside for many miles, and it was one of the more solid cars ive driven, much more solid than my Mercedes 380 SL which is built like a battleship. But many of these cars are 30 years old now, the newest ones are over 20, and accident damage that wasnt repaired properly, broken welds, cracked tubing, rust, etc., (remember that the only thing holding the GTS together is the floor) if its not 100% sound, it could flex. That aluminum underskin could be hiding a world of hurt. I also dont believe the targa top offers any structural integrity. Because they are such a small car, and because the majority of mass is over the rear wheels, one would have to assume the front of the car to be extremely light on the hoist pads if theyre up under the front axle. I just couldnt imagine there is a lot of torque on the chassis sitting up on a hoist like that. If one of these cars were pinching in the doors up on a hoist, I would seriously want to investigate the chassis to determine the cause. These arent that unlike Fiat 850 Spyders or Alfa Spyders that, when rusted out underneath, would sag when you opened the doors. But with a tube frame chassis these are built about 10 times stronger, and they just shouldnt be sagging out like that I dont believe. These cars arent built any different structually than the V-12 open roadsters of the 50's and 60's. If those cars can still be solid, there is no reason on earth for the 308 GTS to be any less so. This could begin to sway more demand for the Berlinettas and GT4's if this theory persists. One thing I have noticed though, and really just lately though some of the pictures are old. Race car versions, even works backed cars, often have a strut rod attached between the upper shock points in the engine compartment. Maybe they flex more than we would like to think they do.
I have a GTS and my car seems pretty dang solid.... ---shrug--- The quote came from someone who is well known, but I've never been in a 308GTB (328 GTB, but not a 308), so I cannot verify, only restating what was told to me . You made some good points in your response, could be rust, body damage, weakening in general, dunno. But mine seems fine. I had a P-car boxster which used to moan and groan going down my silly-twisted driveway. I have had NO problems in my 308 GTS. I haven't tracked my car (and don't plan to) so I wont be tested it "to the max". ---shrug--- I dunno, but I hope the OP gets the car if it checks out ok James in Denver
GTS's are plenty stiff, GTB's about the same, maybe a tad more. I can tell you for sure that when my 911 cabriolet is on the lift, I cannot open either door, but I can with my 911 coupe. I have now learned to exit the cabriolet before the hoisting the car up for service.
Just a fact. The B's are far stiffer than the S, simple physics. One needs only to drive through an alley or parking lot with uneven pavement and listen to the creeking of the roof panel in an S to understand. Is the flex dangerous? NO and I have never seen any damage resulting from it. Can it be felt while driving? Yes, but is only really noticeable when near the limit of the car. Surely I do not consider it a deterent from purchasing an S in any way. Verell, because you havent seen a car where the doors dont open on your hoist, really doesnt mean it it does not happen to perfectly good, undamaged cars. I'll call you on your "BS" statement here, careful with stated absolutes as there are folks that have whitnessed it and I deal with it daily. I bought my B's for two reasons. The first, I wanted the stiffest chassis possible as we live in, and drive the mountain roads and the race tracks and any race car tech/builder knows it is impossible to fine tune a chassis that flex's. Second, I simply prefer the styling of the B over the S. Then again, this might be "BS" too. Paul, Real race cars being those built with serious competition in mind, all have the suspension corners connected to the roll cage. There were many rules written to avoid this being done in the lower level classes but I was quite sucessful in getting a number of those rulings over turned on the cars I was building by using the "in the interest of safety" statement, a wonderful way to gain an advantage. The cross bar in front of the fuel cell in the pics below is a perfect example, "thats there just to protect the cell", RIGHT! Not really cheating, Smokey called it Cheatin... Few care to challange the statement regarding saftey on the record. Look through the rear quarter window and at the front shock mount on a factory car built for serious competition and this is on a B, albeit unibody. No bolt in stuff on the seriuos cars, that flex's too. Dave Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Now thats a good question! I will never convince Kris to go on a 1K mile tour in this without one. Thinking about it, if she does get in this car for 1K miles, she will never talk to me again regardless.... "p.s. That's a nice big pair of plenums you got there baby." Careful big guy! Dave
