To even get a test in an F1 car takes more talent than most of us here have. To pull the pass in the rain on Kubica, takes big brass ones. To give the championship winning race to your teammate in front of your home crowd takes commitment. To win a championship takes talent, balls, commitment and a good dose of luck. But to blow the championship the way Hamilton did last year, takes a MIRACLE. To suggest that any one of the F1 drivers have lack of talent takes questionable sanity.
I love the hypocrisy on this site sometimes. Massa, and a fair number of you guys believe that he had a string of very bad luck in the past, and that is why he is yet to win a WDC. So when Massa humps kerbs enough to brake the suspension (but Kimi doesn't) its bad luck. Sure, there was a flaw with the car, but part of being a driver is succeeding despite the flaws in your car. Then the red light fiasco in Montreal. Bad luck; the team should have warned him. Driving off the course from mistakes. Bad luck; the weather was terrible. Meanwhile Kimi brushed a barrier in Q2 in Monaco and took himself out; definitely pushing a bit hard. What's the general response? He's a drunkard who cannot focus and ferrari shouldn't be wasting their money on him. now that Kimi is reigning WDC, I know some have sang a different tune. But there were those of us in the begginning that knew all along. Kimi is top-notch, baby. I've said it countless times before, Massa lacks race craft. He will be in a high position sometime in the race (up near the lead, if not leading outright), get pressure from (insert name) from behind for a lap, then on the first corner after the straight on the next lap, he'll get set up and passed like he's driving a taxi. Embarassing in its own right, he will then further his embarassment by turning a fast lap of the race (officially, none-the-less). So not only can he drive blindingly fast, he can be made a fool by a more experienced, tactful driver. Massa is not a bad driver speed wise, he's just a bad racer.
I agree with everything you said so far. I am not saying he did not win the championship just because of bad luck. All I am saying is that you don't extend your contract with Ferrari, of all teams, by being a mediocre driver.Let alone lacking talent. All the hype about Jenson Button and he has done nothing. Yet people bash someone winning races and in contention for the title for most of the season. The whole hoopla about Hamilton made a lot of people not paying attention to other drivers. Everyone talks about him being the next great number one and point out how great of a rookie he was. But I think that the same people forget, or are in denial, that the real miracle is not that Kimi won, but that the Hamster F-UP like a school boy at a spelling contest.
I see: so when Kimi drives into a wall, he's "pushing a bit hard", but when Massa uses the curbs, it's his fault he didn't know the gearbox was going to fail? (Oh, but Kimi knew better? Well, after Massa's gearbox went, sure. But Kimi is suddenly a genius for *not* pushing hard at the start of the season?) And despite the bad commentary from SpudTV, it was *both* drivers going off the course in Japan --- where they both had the wrong tires, remember? (TV announcers can't spot helmet colors in the rain, I guess.) Yes, lots of hypocrisy on this site --- on both sides. Being capable of being a WDC doesn't make you one. Kimi's been more or less capable for many years. This is his first. But, frankly, it wasn't his best year driving. He can do better (or used to be able to -- he only lost to Schumi by two points one year). And he had his share of bad luck, too. (Assuming that was an engine failure in Germany, rather than running out of gas. ) It took an incredible string of blunders and bad luck (in another camp) to make Kimi's year add up to a WDC, in '07. But those hooting for Kimi haven't let themselves see that Massa had a pretty good year -- not an unblemished one, but not bad either. It didn't add up to a WDC. Neither red car driver had an unblemished year. There wasn't all that much difference between them in points when the call came in to pick one to "go for it". That car failure in Monza *was* just luck. Okay, there's '08. Kimi will be a hard act to beat, now that he's adapted to the new car. But Massa is no slouch either. I'd think we'd be happy that Ferrari has two top drivers. Both drivers have their strengths and weaknesses. But I guess the people who care only about the WDC rather than seeing Ferrari take the WCC would like to see Kimi teamed with a slug that couldn't outrace a glacier -- and no other teams on the track, so Kimi wouldn't have to work for it. But if you didn't have to work for it, what would it be worth? Easy wins don't give a sense of accomplishment. Winning when you pooed the screwch but everyone else did worse is a hollow victory. But winning against tough competition -- THOSE are the wins you remember in your old age. Even losing (narrowly) to a top drivers is more satisfying than strolling past zippy the wonder slug. Be happy for Kimi that it isn't "easy". But what happens if Kimi has to work hard to edge out a teammate that you've told yourself is a no-talent slug? You going to call that a "failure" for Kimi? Finishing ahead of Massa isn't all that easy -- especially if he doesn't have an extra "pit stop" to let you past. I find it impressive that Kimi could win a race or two (on his own) against a driver more familiar with the team. They're both good drivers. The teams setting up "designated #1 drivers" are going to have an uphill struggle for the WCC.
I like threads like these: At the end of the year we can refer back to them and see who eats crow. It won't be me.
Massa may be a far, far better driver than any of us but he is not being compared to the population at large. He is being compared to F1 drivers and in that regard he falls solidly in the ranks of the mediocre. Ide, Speed, Liuzzi. Justin Wilson, Doornbos, and countless others made their way to F1. They are likely to be better drivers than any of us could hope to be. Yet there is no reason to believe whatsoever that any of them were ever going to challenge for the WDC, even in a top car. All Massa has done is demonstrate the ability to underperform the potential of his car. Hamilton steps into a top-level car, with no F1 experience, and outperforms the reigning WDC, winning 4 races and missing the title by a single point. Wow, all you can point ot is a single pass he made against a demonstrably inferior car. Wow. Senna must be rolling over in his grave... Massa has two seasons in a top car, what has he done? He has finished 3rd and 4th in the title chase. He won fewer races than a rookie, and he was vastly outperformed by his teammates, repeating a pattern he has demonstrated throughout his entire career. Guess which one Massa lacks... To suggest that Massa is a talent on the level of Alonso, Kimi or Hamilton takes a breathtaking lack of naivity.
Ok, I see the tree musketeers gathered again to pet eachother on the back, but apparently you are not paying attention again. What a surprise. I did not say that Massa is the greatest driver or that he should have been champion last year. All I said was that to say that he has no talent is insane. Finishing third in a year dominated by Renault, in which Michael finished second by virtue of bad luck, is what 85% of the drivers on the grid today masturbate to. Scuderia Ferrari may have been born at night, I don't know, but it wasn't last night for sure. For them to sign Massa as a tester and promote him into the seat on race day should mean something. To sign him again for additional 3 years should definitely open your eyes. And please enough of the "best rookie BS". After all, no matter how well he did, he failed when it counted. I am all for KIMI, don't get me wrong, but if we have to be honest, he did not win the championship. Massa and the HAmster gave it to him collectively. One of them by f-up at the end, and the other one by doing exactly what the team asked him to do. If Massa was a mediocre driver no good for a WDC challenge he would have been drinking Budweiser with JPM and JV, not wearing red overalls with a prancing horse on them. Oh and by the way, the one spectacular pass in the rain that Massa pulled on Kubica is still one more to remember than Alonso had all year and beats LH's "win" behind the safety car. And unlike Alonshole the great, never got passed on the outside by Satto-a mediocre driver according to you.
Most drivers aspire to come in first, not third. Most drivers also don't have a car capable of winning. When Massa has, he has failed to match the benchmarks set by his teammates. Chronically. It validates what others have said all along - that Massa is a good NUMBER 2 driver. A good supporter of their main WDC contender - which previosuly was MS and now is KR. If Hamilton failed but came in 2nd in a car that was generally no slower or faster than the Ferrari, then Massa is clearly worse of a driver (by your own metric) than the failure that is Hamilton. Or he'd be relegated to being the supporting AKA #2 driver. Oh, wait... Every driver makes mistakes and we might criticize Schumi for parking it in Rascasse (and Massa was able to make that turn, so Massa is a better driver? Of course not). Bottom line is that Alonso has had three years where he had a car capable of winning the WDC. Twice he DID win the WDC, once he came in just a couple points behind. Massa had two years where he had a WDC-winning car and wasn't even close - not by a few points or even quite a few points - but rather a ton of points. Game, set, match - Win: Alonso.
Actually, thinking about how events unfolded last year, this would make perfect sense. Ferrari needed his help, or should I say Kimi did, in order to win and in return gave him a new contract. I would not be surprised if part of that deal was, that this year would be his turn. I honestly don't care which one of the two Ferrari drivers win as long as it is not another team. The only thing that tips the scales a little bit in Massa's favor is just the thought of the faces of the naysayers on here. I don't know if it would happen, but it would be cool. What would really make me happy is for HK to spank the Hamster real good. Not because I don't like LH, but simply to shut the british press up, 'cause I am tired of Lewis this and Lewis that. The kid is fantastic driver, but let him be and prove it on his own.
I was just starting to wonder where D'Artagnan was. Anyway, you have some valid points with big holes in them. This whole thing started from someone saying that Massa has no talent and me objecting to it and now it turned into if Massa was equal of Schumi or not.Well no one will ever be. You are absolutely right-all drivers aspire to be 1st. I don't believe that Massa aspired to finish second or third.Besides when he did, he did so behind Michael Schumacher (maybe not beating the best ever, makes you mediocre), his teammate. Both of them were driving a car NOT on par with the Renault that year and the only reason why it did not always seemed that way was because MS was picking up the slack The point I was trying to make is that even if a team has a set #1 and #2 drivers policy, they would still try to get the best #2 they could. That would make Massa the best number two by your own logic. Well, being the best number two in F1 , especially in a team like Ferrari should at least pull you out of the mediocre circle. Don't you agree? Jenson Button is so great, everyone says, great talent. Well I don't believe that he would have turned an offer from Ferrari. As a matter of fact I don't believe that anyone would turn an offer from the Scuderia. I still wonder then, if Massa is mediocre then why are they keeping him. See this whole argument that the 4 of you are jumping in as brothers in arms is not about whether Massa is better than Kimi or not, or if he should be THE#2 at SF. It is about him being mediocre or not. He far above that mark in my opinion.
Clearly Ted was joking when he said Massa had no talent. I am sure Massa aspired to finish first - but he didn't have a level of talent equal to other drivers in similar cars so he has consistently finished behind them. That includes Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi, Schumi, and others. As for Schumi not driving on par with the Renault - I beg to differ. There was nothing wrong with Schumi's driving - he almost won the WDC and probably would have were it not for an engine failure. Massa wasn't even close to being in the running for WC that year - he was way back. I also completely disagree with you that a team would try to get the best driver for their #2 - not at all. Does anyone seriously think Rubens was the 2nd best driver next to MS? Does anyone think Ferrari thought he was? Or do we think that MS had Ferrari at his beck and call and forced them to pick a mediocre driver? No, what Ferrari wants is very very clear. They want a very fast #1 driver, and a supporting driver. This supporting driver should be a consistent finisher, someone who will pick up points when needed and who knows their place enough that if they are told to do something that stymies their own chances but helps the #1 driver, they will do it. And they won't be a good enough driver to get sick of that situation and quit to go to another team. Lets face it - Massas phone ain't ringing with Flavio or Ron begging him to drive for them. If/when Massa leaves, he is either retiring or he is going to someone who is at the level Honda/Toyota/STR is at. He would not go to a top team, because he is not a top shelf driver. He is good, but he is not a WDC winning driver and never will be. Massa is not the best #2 because other teams don't have this #1/#2 policy. Renault does but we don't know how good Piquet will be. McLaren doesn't and I'd rate Heiki a lot higher than Massa. I'd say most of the #1 drivers (Kimi, Hamilton, Heiki, Button, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Heidfeld) are better drivers than Alonso. That's a good 1/3rd of the field. Given 1/3rd are probably pretty bad drivers, that leaves Massa in the middle with the rest. You know - middle.. mediocre As for Ferrari not calling Button - well they don't want someone to challenge Kimi. That didn't work well for McLaren and SF doesn't want the same situaiton. They want a 2nd driver - they want *exactly* what they had with Rubens. Massa is certainly on the upper-half of the mediocre scale. But SF had the reigns for Massa for a long time before they signed him - why didn't they do it previously if he was the wonderboy? I have no doubt Massa is aiming for the WDC this year. I also have no doubt that Rubens was aiming for it every hear. I am sure he had the same voice in his head that Massa has now though, telling him he won't be able to do it. We shall see - but Ted and I have both offered to take bets on whether Massa wins the WDC this year. I'd even give odds but nobody wants any of that action. ...because IMO its not about people really thinking Massa is good - but rather feeling bad for seeing a Ferrari driver get slagged.
When watching the entire 2007 season, none disappointed more than Massa. He would be turning fast laps, and still be getting passed. This is my beef with him, and why to ME he is mediocre. It is not his speed. It is not his qualifying, or race pace, or desire to win, or commitment. It is his utter lack of race craft. He bangs wheels with everyone he can get in a tussle with, but will be the first to cry foul play on Alonso during their position swapping and rubbing in Nurburgring. He got ALL bent out of shape, and clearly there is some history between them 2, with Alonso somehow (Massa's bad luck, right?) always prevailing. Bottom line is this: Massa deserves his ride, no doubt. But he doesn't have what it takes to be a great. With Lewis on the scene, Alonso still strong, and Kimi re-invigorated in not only the team (expressing his desire to stay with Ferrari indefinitely, as it is the "place for him") but with racing and F1 this year, as well as many drivers on the up and up such as Hekki, Nico, Heidfeld, Kubica, Vettel, I think the only reason why Massa will stay ahead of anyone is because of his machine. If those other drivers can get the most out of their cars, and/or push their teams to compete with Ferrari and McL on a budgetary level, Massa will fall by the wayside more often than he currently does.
I think Massa is a good driver. He does appear at times to get skiddish after making mistakes. Hey I get spooked at times driving but I'm not a professional. He needs to get over those moments if he is going to suceed and climb higher than average. Another point on his side is that he is staunchly supportive of his "team" even if that means he has to take a second or third. I know teams aren't suppose to have orders but... hey there are alot of races when working with Schumi and Kimi it looked like he purposely stepped back or pitted at an odd time for the sake of his teammate. If he concentrates on more on "his" career and less on Kimis he has the skill and speed to do it. Providing Ferrari doesn't order him to let Kimi win since they paid all that money and made such a big deal about him. I do have to give Hamilton alot of credit. That kid can drive like a MF. I Would loved to have seen him and Schumi going at it. They both have the same driving edge and respect for their mechanical and engineering team.
You I agree with completely . Why is it different what you are saying from other people? Well, first of all you admit to be YOUR OPINION, where some others, not for the first time, state their opinion as a fact and the word of God. Just like you said, Massa is probably lacking race craft. That does not mean he is lacking talent. Also, what is just my opinion, is that he would smoke most of the drivers you mentioned (Hekki, Nico, Heidfeld, Kubica, Vettel) if they are put in the Ferrari next to him. A lot of people are looking at his career in F1. Well, when Schumi started and impressed with his qualifying, he did not finished the race because he fried his clutch. Do you thing that 3 years later he would have done the same mistake? Of course not. I know you can't compare Schumi with Massa, but why does anyone think that Massa did not learn and improve? Lets not forget that the last 3 years of his career he has been under a contract obligating him not to race his teammate for two of them and last year, even tho he made mistakes, he had a dose of bad luck (for real) which put him in position to just add the team. Did anyone forget that for the first part of last season, he was faring better than Kimi?
Who gives a **** about Massa? Why do you care about the number 2 driver when Ferrari has a great driver in Kimi? When MS left the team, the budget they put towards getting Kimi showed he was, will be, and always will be the Number one driver as long as a half ass like Massa is there. As far as Alonso, have a little respect, he is 10 x the driver Massa will ever be, that includes about half the field. Don't even start about Hamilton, it shows a few things; you have not been following F1 very long, and as far as Massa being the second driver it shows how Ferrari operates and always has. Much better any day to have JPM or a Button at Ferrari. Give it up on Massa already, the guy was the Number 2 in 06, 07, and will continue his mediocrity in 2008.
