Your anologies are very poor. Massa isn't some kid hoping and wishing to be a F1 WDC. He is almost there. You nor I have any idea if he has reached his maximum potential; only he does. Unless you have read his DNA and figured out he has no more room for improvement, than there is no "resounding no". He improved a lot in the last 2 years.. no reason why he will not now.
He is improvng over the last two years? He is nearly there as an F1 WDC?? Oh really? On what planet might that be? He went from 3rd in the standings to 4th. Is that what constitutes improvement in your world? He was outshone by a guy who had never, ever driven in F1 before this season. Is that what constitutes a near-WDC in your book?? My analogy is spot on. How many more years of underperforming his teammate and failing to get as much out of his car than the previous two #2 drivers at Ferrari do you need to see before you understand this? He has been in F1 for 5 full seasons. How much of a learning curve does he still have? If he has much of one at this stage in his career, then he needs to be somewhere else. If you can't figure out how to drive after 5 years in F1, then you can't drive. Period. Improvement after 5 years had better be incrementally on the margin. If it isn't then you have serious problems as a driver. I don't know whether Chad Pennington has reached his maximum potential as an NFL quarterback but I think it is as safe a bet as there is that he will not become the next Tom Brady. I don't know whether Karthikayyen has reached his maximum potential as an F1 driver but I will bet my first-born that he will never threaten Schumacher's records. I may not know Massa's exact maximum potential but I can give you an extremely good guess as to what that might be. And it ain't pretty...
Your opinion regarding the tires flies in the face of pretty much everybody from F1 who commented about this. Apart from that telemetry data showed how Kimi adapted to the tires and it is no coincidence that as that data changed his on track performances improved. I admit I was disappointed that it took him so long to find his feet and that was his fault. But you can't adapt from years of Michelins to Bridgestones overnight. And a new car and a new team. You sound like you're the motivational trainer at a driving range for Japanese managers. "Just keep hitting the balls, you too will become a Tiger Woods.". As others have stated, pure nonsense. Real F1 WDCs are born with it. They are fast out of the box. They don't have to spend years in F1 to become fast. That said, Massa does stand a chance of becoming WDC if we have another 1982, 1994 or 1999. He sits in the fastest car on the grid, which eliminates his competition to about 3 other guys. Why are the Massa fans thinking that he actually is a #1 driver competing for the WDC? I was/am a huge Eddie Irvine fan, but I never thought that he could clinch the title (with the exception of 1999). I was very happy that he was 2nd fiddle to MS. It didn't matter to me, the guy was/is so much cooler than anybody else.
You guys crack me up!!!! This guy is a great driver. You don't get to F1 without being a great driver. He is on a great team, and has a very, very good chance to end up WDC. However, there is something in the mix that you haven't even discussed: who is his engineer, and how good is that guy, because that engineer is probably 30 - 40% of the needed imput. While the cars may be mechanically the same, they aren't set up the same. Some of the difference is the perferences of the driver, and some of the difference is the engineer. If that was the first year that he worked with that engineer, expect him to do better this year. I'm willing to bet that there isn't anyone on this site with that level of talent, or even close to it. You guys probably aren't even good enough to evaluate the drivers..... I'm certainly not, and even in my prime, probably wasn't good enough, and I ran at the National level, something I suspect none of you have done, except in your dreams. Art
Ah, that stupid line or arguing again. If you're not a F1 driver, how can you possibly judge them? Well, hello, it happens all the time. By non F1 drivers. Team managers, journalists, sponsors and...<gulp> fans. Yes, people like us watching this sport actually. Imagine that. Luckily this only happens in F1 and in no other sport. No other sport is commented on. There are no quarter back Monday morning referees anywhere else but F1. Not. PS: Isn't it interesting that most of the folks who don't think much of Massa have been following this sport for decades? Could there be a reason for it?
Standings don't portray the level of improvement. Its easy to see that Massa's car handling skills and race skills have improved over the last 2 years.
Actually I agree that Massa has improved his game. He was almost useless in the Sauber where he was busy keeping the car on the track whereas in 2007 he took some really great wins. I don't even dispute that he can't improve some more. But so does the competition. This year he is facing Kimi and next year Hamilton and thereafter some young guy we're not even talking about yet. His window of opportunity was at the beginning of last season and it closed mid season.
Andreas, 'experience' watching/scrutinizing many drivers/cars over the years gives a certain amount of ground for said folks to stand on
Thanks m8. Following since the late seventies. I cheered for my own "Massas" hoping they would beat their number 1: Regazzoni, Reutemann, Tambay, Alesi to name a few. Of course it never happened.
Didn't say you can't judge them, it's just that like most amateurs, you don't really know what you're looking at. I listen to people chat about some of the AMA competitors, and just giggle at their foolishness. Same deal here. There are so many variables that you are unaware of, that you really don't have a clue as to the effect of the combination of the variables or driver. A great example is how a poor engineer can make a driver look terrible by improper brake bias selection, improper fuel flow, etc, (and at this level, he doesn't have to be off by very much) and you don't know the difference. Without the inside knowledge of the set up, the variances, etc., you can't have clue as to what is really going on with the cars. And if you don't know what is going on with the cars, you can't know the quality of the drivers. It is one of the reasons that the various TV sports channels usually pick an ex-competitor, usually one who has done well, to moderate and provide commentary on the events. But, yeh, don't let reality bother you folks here, just keep commenting, makes for good entertainment. Art
Ide, Doornbos, Liuzzi, Speed, Justin Wilson all made it to F1. While they may be better drivers than any of us, they sucked in F1. The population we are comparing drivers to are other F1 drivers, not the population as a whole. And on that basis, Massa is not even close to being a stand-out driver, any more than Rubens or Irvine before him, and both of them did far, far more with the Ferrari than Massa has. Your statement is absurd. After 5 years in F1 and two with the same team, I should think Massa ought to know what he needs the car to do and be able to articulate this to his engineer. According to some here, the Ferrari team had coalesced around him in the pre-season last year. Surely he must have been able to find an engineer suitable for him, wouldn't you think? Kimi DID have trouble with the car's set-up last season early on...that didn't keep him from winning the WDC. What's Massa's excuse?!? Hmmmm...I can't speak for everyone here but I have been racing since 1991. Last year I raced at the national level in both road racing and drag racing, taking one title. How was your season?
Oh really?!? Well...let's see what Mark Hughes, columnist for Autosport's F1's Inside Line, had to say about Massa's performance at this year's test at Jerez: I suspect that being a professional F1 journalist he probably knows a little about the sport... As far as braking is into the corner is concerned, the visible differences between a great driver and a good one have been amplified. Felipe Massa was struggling to make the braking and turn-in one smooth operation, in stark contrast to Kimi Raikkonen. Massa, looking like he was trying to drive the car as if it still had all its tricks, would lock up and run wide more often than not, regularly missing the apex. It was the unloaded rear wheel that was giving him problems, the tyre locking and jinking him off-line. By contrast, Raikkonen would roll the car into the corner, keeping the momentum turn up and making hardly any inputs. He would make a much wider arc into the turn than in the electronic days-his line much more classical. He'd get the car fully loaded up at the apex and, from the way the power came on smoothly in, it was apparent that he had a very progressive torque curve. He would do it exactly the same lap after lap, the Ferrari's grip and traction - in his hands - looking deeply impressive" (I am amused that he needs to qualify his statement about the Ferrari's grip and traction looking impressive in Kimi's hands...but not Massa's) And later, when discussing Mark Webber's driving at that same test, Hughes wrote: "Watching how great a job he was doing in an unsorted car and seeing Massa struggle in the Ferrari, it was difficult not to ponder how they might each get on if they swapped cockpits. I read an opinion somewhere recently to the effect that 'Webber would be as good as Massa, given the car'. On the evidence of Jerez, I'd say Mark's in a different league now that they toys have been turned off. Felipe has a lot of adapting to do before Melbourne." Can't make a clean brake into a turn, missing apexes left and right, and being compared disfavorably to Mark Webber - Mark Webber, for chrissake?!? If this is an improvement in car handling skills, then maybe I should send a CV to Ferrari...
I gotta agree with what Senna3xWC is saying above, Massa is a good driver but the Raikkonens and Alonsos are a step ahead (I'm unsure whether to include Hamilton in the top tier yet with KR and FA). On a scale from 1-10 with 10 being Shumacher/Senna and a 1 being Yuji Ide, I would rate FA and KR as 9s, Hamilton as a 8.5, and Massa as an 8. I thought Massa could be a great driver has done nothing to prove it but has done many things to disprove it. I hope Massa does well because we need him to score some points for constructors, but I see him only as an upgraded Barrichello just assisting Ferrari with constructors and getting the Number 1 driver more wins. Was Nick Todt Massa's manager when he was on Sauber, because that is the only logical reason that Massa could have gotten the Ferrari job?
Art, How come you always comment on politics when you don't have any inside knowledge of the parties, the back-room meetings, the variances in positions? You can't have a clue to which candidates are really good. Its one of the reasons various TV news channels usually pick an ex-politician, usually one who has done well, to moderate and provide commentary on the events. But yeah, don't let the reality bother you from your political commentary, it makes for good entertainment.
I dropped out of this argument few days ago as it would never end and there is no winners in it, no matter what some people think of themselves here. Here is what it comes to. At the end of this season someone will get served a crow. Hot, cold or black n'blue I would eat it if it turns out I was wrong. The question is if everyone else would have the dignity to take their portion if it turns out they were wrong, as last year there was a similar situation and at the end bunch of big-mouths jumped the wagon and had the balls to accuse others of being fair weather fans. I can't wait to find out. Until then you boys keep measuring your d**** and pet each other on the shoulder. Remember that this started as "Massa is above midfield mediocre driver" and not "he is the great new WDC". Some here forget this or they just chnge the argument as they are going to lose it otherwise. Anyway, enough said. Pretty soon it will start to show who was on the right track.
Nothing wrong with Webber as a yardstick, I would be prepared to take a bet that most driver on the F1 grid would not compare favourably to Webber in the same car. That article was a good read. Massa will still be fast I think. But not as fast or consistent as the top guys Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton. I think he will be on par with Kovi.
I think you deserve much more respect than some of the other guys hanging Massa out to dry. I don't mind people thinking Massa is a bad driver, or that he won't have a shot at the WDC, but the way that people have to harp on the guy is a bit crazy. Either way lets get on to the races!!! only another month or so.
"Real F1 WDCs are born with it. They are fast out of the box. They don't have to spend years in F1 to become fast. That said, Massa does stand a chance of becoming WDC if we have another 1982, 1994 or 1999. He sits in the fastest car on the grid, which eliminates his competition to about 3 other guys. " There are no FAKE F1 WDC's winners. If FM wins, I think we can say it is real. As stated NONE of us drive or own these teams and cars, its just speculative fun that some here push as fact. The facts stated are historical and do lead to conclusions of course. The unmistakable thing about F1 is its unpredictability. LH fans chime in. UK press crowned his little LOSING seat before it was due. Now how about that for a prediction eh? He LOST. No one was betting on KIMI to win. We will know who wins in a few months. Thats all we really know. If FM wins great and I for one wont call others out here in my push to have MY ego and position put on others simply because I got lucky, LUCKY in a prediction. Thats just plain silly to think this or any other chat board can prove how SUPERIOR you are in F1. Not until you are sitting on the grid do you have anything that is better to say than someone else. Discourse here is simply grating and unpleasant.
I don't think Massa was as good a #2 as Rubens. Rubens finished #2 in the standings 3 times (IIRC) and helped Ferrari win several WCCs. Massa on the other hand is sliding further down the driver standings with each passing season, cost the team the WCC in 2006 and (let's not forget) would have cost the team the WCC in 2007 had McLaren not been penalized. As a #2 driver, he has not contributed as much to the team as did Rubens or Irvine. If anyone thinks otherwise, I can't imagine what objective reasons they could possibly produce. It seems to me that Massa is a sentimental favorite on here solely because he happens to be the incumbent #2 but the fact is that he has not done as well in the car as either Irvine nor Rubens. He is far from being the best #2 in the sport as some here have proclaimed him, he was a mediocre driver before Ferrari and he will go back to being a mediocre driver once he is fired (which WILL happen).
