275 needs Total Restoration, good price at $200k?

Supposedly sold for $750k ish. I sent an email to the owner a month or so ago, and he said finished the car should be worth about $1.1MM. Using $250k as the rebuild budget that would leave $100k for the effort of the person doing the rebuild. Too rich for me, I had no idea what the cost of the car was prior to the email.
BT

 

One problem is rust. Once it starts you're back to square one. You really have to take it totally apart to deal with rust. Another problem is that unless you take the mechanicals apart you run the risk of a worn part doing massive damage. If you damage a 275 GTB 4 head you're in the deep end. We're giving Dino Competizione a complete cleaning and have documented the process with over 1500 photographs so far. We'll publish that cleaning at some point and it will give you some idea of what's involved and what 40 year old coagulated wheel bearing grease looks like.

Best

 

It looks a lot like the chunks of asphalt that are created when a pothole forms in the road

 

Was this car not the subject of a previous F chat thread 3 to 4 months ago? Chatters expressed concern about the nose/authenticity etc?

 

About as soft as well.

 

I still believe that if you don't insist on "restoring" it so it looks like new, you could turn it into a driver for a lot less than $300k.

 

Obviously, but as Napolis points out you may do more damage unless it's throughly checked out top-to-bottom (and you're going to open Pandora's box with that). I think a good driver candidate would be an older resto, not an incomplete one. That's going to be more up front, but ultimately less than what this particular car may need.

Still, the numbers being thrown around are mind-numbing.. especially for something that isn't a one-off.

 

I agree. If you buy a car that has been maintained or an older Restoration you can simply check it out, do some simple maintenance and drive it but once it reaches this stage IMHO the only way to go is a total restoration.

Best

 

Probably true, at this point.

 

I could do that easily. Of course, it will have a GM motor in it...

Ken

 

Expensive engine parts aside, I don't think that 40 year old wheel bearing grease on a Ferrari is any worse than 40 year old grease on a 67 Corvette or Mustang. And glass beads don't know whether they are blasting a Corvette frame or a Ferrari frame. I think it all comes down to a fundamental difference in the way Ferrari guys and other antique car guys look at things. Joe Average who restores an old Chevy will strip it down to the frame in his own garage and slowly but surely work on his labor of love. Ferrari guys always seem to want to wheel it into Snobbo Automotive's resto shop, write a check for a few hundred thousand bucks, and wait a year or two until they rendevous with the completed car at Pebble Beach. Take a Ferrari seat to an upholstery shop and tell them that it's from a Corvette or a Mustang. I don't think that it will cost any more to have it redone JUST because it came from a Ferrari. And I don't think that spray painting a frame with automotive grade semi-flat black will cost any more on a Ferrari frame than a Chevy frame.

It also reminds me of an older out-of-print car book that I was looking for once. Called a book dealer and was quoted a price of $150 or some such nonsense because it was a "rare" book and no longer in print,...yadda yadda.
Did a few more calls and found another dealer with 2 brand new copies in his back room. Bought them for $25 a piece.

 

Couldn't agree more.!!
The same goes for a lot of engine builders and resto places today. They KNOW that there are people out there that will hand over the money because its a vintage Ferrari, but at the end of the dayits just another chassis,body and engine.
Its a shame the old resto shops aren't what they used to be (well over here in the UK anyway)

 

I think getting correct parts is part of the battle. Think of this car as a 1914 Stutz Bearcat or something. You can do an "incorrect" restoration for a fraction of the cost, but that's basically a waste of money as it will still be expensive and you won't get the value. That's what my Chevy motor comment was supposed to be pointing out.

If you take the seats to Vette shop, the stitching and materials will be wrong, and the people with the money will not want it.

Ken

 

From what I've seen, there isn't another car group that is more obsessed with absurd details than the Corvette restorers. Obsessing over head bolt markings and paint textures and other such nonsense to the point of absurdity that overshadows the car itself. My money says that incorrect seat stitching on a 275 seat cushion would not make one "hill of beans" difference in the selling price of a half million dollar car. As JG has said before, let the metal do the talking. Is the body real? Is the frame real? Is the engine real? If so, then you've got yourself a real car that will bring the appropriate market value, and incorrect frame paint shine or head bolt markings isn't going to matter much.

 

"Ferrari guys always seem to want to wheel it into Snobbo Automotive's resto shop, write a check for a few hundred thousand bucks, and wait a year or two until they rendevous with the completed car at Pebble Beach."


Actually, it will be a year or two before they can even start on the car.

I have a 1953 212 Inter Pininfarina I want to restore. There are very few people in the world who know what a 212 Inter should look like, and even they'll tell you that each car is different. Materials? Finishes? Detail parts? You can't compare restoring a '60s muscle car to restoring a 50s or 60s limited production Ferrari.

 

I tend to agree with Arlie on this. Of course, it depends on why you're buying it-- if it's to drive it and have fun with it, and the seat stitching isn't exactly right, who cares? Or the plug wires aren't the right color?

As long as you get the important things right, that's what makes a car a "driver" rather than a show car. And in the case of this one, I'd leave the seats alone-- they look fine!

That said, I think JG and CMY are right that for that sort of car, an already running driver would be a better candidate than this half-completed old restoration.

 

The average kid would be better off financially today, as an auto mechanic, than as a doctor or lawyer. Only the top tier lawyers are making the big bucks these days, and unless you get in to a very lucky practice in a true specialty, medicine is no longer bring the income it did two-three decades ago. My kids will definitely have the opportunity to look at the “blue collar” field of auto mechanics when the time comes, along with the more traditional jobs of the upper middle class. Last year my old mechanic roommate made significantly more take home money than my surgeon dad.

So kids stay in school and make sure you get as good of grades in auto shop as in biology!

and don't do drugs!

 

Can't wait!!!!

 

This really belongs in the Business section, but I think if you had a fairly well thought out marketing plan and were well spoken (not to mention honest) you could make an absolute killing in the blue-collar fields. I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but the thought has crossed my mind on more than a few occasions.

 

Sounds like we're entering into a zone of contradiction. If "There are very few people in the world who know what a 212 Inter should look like, and even they'll tell you that each car is different. Materials? Finishes? Detail parts? "...............then why all the fuss over what is supposedly "correct"? Sounds like the definition of what is "correct" is much more fluid and varied than a 60s muscle car which the Ferrarista often tend to malign. I once talked to Roger Gibson in Missouri who was well versed on concours type restoration of original Chevelle muscle cars. He knew every intricate detail regarding frame paint, bolt heads, metal finishes and a hundred other things that must be correct on a factory produced car. Not much leeway. Sounds like an old Ferrari of limited production has plenty of leeway for non-exacting restoration. Who but Luigi's grandfather would know what is, or is not correct at this point in the timeline?

 

Will

If you want I can put you in touch with PF who have a full restoration department. MY guess is, due to the euro it will cost about 600K US and take a year for a total world class restoration assuming no cracked castings.

Arlie

I have restored a lot of cars including a Lola which is Chevy powered. Except for my Duesenberg Ferrari's are MUCH more mechanically complex. When we publish the cleaning PF gave my Dino you'll understand. I have my own shop which only works on my own cars. My cost is easily $60 per hour not including parts in the NY area. In the Midwest it would be about $45 for Labor/Insurance/Shop/supplies/phone/etc./etc. If I ran it as a business I would have to charge at least $100 per hour.

Best

 

Keep in mind that the original foundation of our discussion was (hypothetically) that the 275 was in good running condition. This would pre-suppose that the engine, trans, and differential would not need rebuilding, and that all the assorted parts were with the car. If so, I just don't see how anybody could justifiably extract $300,000 for tearing a car apart, replacing wiring, bushings, repainting, doing the upholstery, etc, etc. It is often said on this board that when you bought a Ferrari, you paid for the engine and the car was free. If so, assuming that the drive train is in good shape, what does $300,000 for restoration of a Ferrari body and chassis get you that you wouldn't get on a 1954 Chevy? (Didn't early Chevys also use the torque tube drive similar to the early 275s?)

To prolong the debate ( ),....if I took the entire drivetrain out of a 275 and delivered the intact car to a restoration shop, what is it about the metal body, chassis, wiring, or glass, that would warrant $300,000 for the restoration of the engineless hulk?

 

Dennis - It seems almost impossible to find talented, smart, eager to learn young mechanics. They're out there, but every shop owner I know complains about how hard it is to find the right guy. When the current generation moves on, I worry about the future of the types of very skilled trades - arts really - on which folks like Napolis depend.

Jim - Thanks, I may take you up on that, still exploring options. My wife and i love the simple lines of the car, and we both love to drive it. At the moment, with the help of some very expert advice from a US restorer, the guys at Competizione & Sports Cars here in Maryland are rounding up parts to replace some relatively minor incorrect pieces. I am willing to be very patient to have the car done correctly. At $600k, the restoration would cost more than I believe the car is worth today, but then irestoration seems to be a labor of love anyway. I say that as the owner of the world's most expensive Datsun 2000, the car on which I learned to drive years ago and which I had restored - it might even be worth $10,000!

Arlie - Of course I'd like someone with Ferrari marque and model knowledge equivalent to Roger Gibson to restore my car. That sort of person - and heck, most of the folks here know who they are, at least in the US - also will have invaluable connections to little shops in Italy, owners of similar cars, marque historians, private parts vaults, and will be able to get the car as close as we can get to correct. Sure I could try to restore it in my garage, but these cars are so rare, and to my eye beautiful, that I'd rather sell it than hack it up. To me, a bad restoration is worse than no restoration at all. And I'm not knocking US cars, I really like some of the muscle cars - maybe not the Superbird, but I wouldn't mind a '67 Vette ....

 

Will

No question 600K, and that is just a guess, wouldn't make economic sense but in toady's world that's what it would take to have the guys that built it restore it to exactly the point is was when it left their workshops and IMO one could spend more and have it turn out less correct as we've all seen from time to time.

Arlie look over the 0854/002C threads and think about doing that. When you see the PF Dino Competizione cleaning you'll better understand the scope of simply cleaning/servicing a car that has been sitting for 40 years.

Best

 

Luigi's grandfather is still around, so it DOES matter.