22. (senna3xwc) > Had Neale and/or McLaren behaved any differently, then suspicion regarding McLaren's involvement would be warranted. However the actions they took, as well as their making available to the FIA any information necessary to prove that no technology from Ferrari was duplicated on the McLaren is completely supportive of McLaren's innocence.< 7-13-07 Who is a McLaren apologist????
23. Quote: Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post No way McLaren is going to get a fair shake in THIS public court of opinion. Some here would not be content until the team was disbanded and Ron Dennis was in jail. Fact of the matter is, the official statement says that Coughlan told some folks at McLaren he had the docs and nobody wanted to look at them and everyone told him to get rid of them. I wonder how many here would pick up the phone and call the police if their spouse or child came home and said they hit a parked car and got scared and drove off? I'll wager... ohh... about 0% of you would. It's only natural to defend one's own, whether it be an employee or family member. It's clear Coughlans motive was to leverage a higher paying job at a new team, so divulging all that info to McLaren would be unhelpful to him. McLaren was not in posession of the info - that much is clear. Some want to say that just because an employee had the info, its the same as the team having it and willfully using it - yeah, right! Thats like saying that having access to a gun is the same as using it to kill someone. They likely did not use the info, and did not even look at it. Surely Coughlan saw it and knew much of it, but I bet very little, if any, made it to the actual car. McLaren shouldn't be penalized any points, nor should the drivers. They should not face any kind of race ban. Maybe they ought to pay a fine or issue some sort of apology for their employees behaviour, but that's about it. Of course, if McLaren wins the WDC and/or WCC this year, people here will forever want to call it a Ferrari win. Let's wait to see what happens officially, I think. Most here are extremely biased, and if anything the FIA is Ferrari-biased. Whatever comes out of there in terms of a decision will be a lot fairer than anything decided here. Excellent post as usual, Mike. (senna3xwc) I have been making the same points to no avail.
24. On 7-16-07 (senna3xwc) > Coughlan and Stepney went to Honda with the documents in hand to offer themselves out as a design team. It is pretty clear that he actively solicited the documents for his own personal gain, not on behalf of McLaren. If McLaren is responsible becuase the employed Coughlan, then is not Ferrari also complicit since they employed Steney? Reply With Quote < Hmmmm..... > Who is a McLaren apologist? <
25. on the same day (senna3xwc) > Fact: Every person he informed of the documents existence refused to look at them and told them to destroy them. I guess you didn't actually read his affadavit. Should I go on? Well......< Well, please go on. and wile you are on it, you can explain how is it a fact.
26. I think I have seen this same attitude somewhere else in the last few days..... Quote: Originally Posted by DF1 View Post FACT: It cannot be proven this data, including moveable floor data was NOT used by Mclaren. In fact its pretty damning given the timeline that Mclaren could have used this data. It will be difficult to prove otherwise. It is not up to McLaren to prove that they didn't do anything wrong, it is up to the accusers to prove that they did. (senna3xwc) > Otherwise I can claim that you are a child molester and it is up to you to prove me wrong. There is nothing damning other than your own baseless conclusions, clouded by your partisanship and refusal to accept known facts. Leaping to conclusions is a far cry from a provable allegation. < What's up with you and child molestation?
27. (senna3xwc) > A crime has taken place, certainly, and an investigation is completely warranted. However to leap from this fact to the conclusion that McLaren is guilty and deserves unishment is utterly ridiculous. None of the evidence points to this and thus far the only arguments here have been baseless accusations, clear animosity for the team and Ron Dennis, and ridiculous leaps to conclusions that are completely unfounded. The only people here who see a clear connection between the acts of a rogue employee and McLaren complicity are the ostriches who are creating a run on aluminum foil hats. When you are ready to actually read the facts, then come back to us. Otherwise your time is better spent with your compatriots scouring the hills of Area 51 looking for UFOs. Reply With Quote < Hear this guys? We are all bunch of ostriches creating a run on aluminum hats. Original!
28. (senna3xwc) > This is hardly the reaction of an organization bent on utilizing stolen information, if anything this seems to be the reaction of an organization with integrity. No one here knows exactly when McLaren learned of Coughlan's actions, when they actually suspended him and when they contacted the FIA and Ferrari. What is clear is that no one, including Coughlan, has stated that any information from these documents found their way into the McLaren design process. A lot of folks here seem to be on a witch hunt, regardless of the facts. < WHO IS A McLAREN APOLOGIST???.......
29. (senna3xwc) > Grasp of reality? All I am doing is relying on KNOWN FACTS, not leaping to conclusions like you clowns. And you wish to talk about tunnel vision?!? By the way, speaking of McLaren apologists, take a look at how many of your fellow conspiracy theorists were slamming Kimi early in the season, calling for his ouster from the team, while I was arguing in support of him...then tell me how much of a McLaren apologist I am and how you are such a Tifosi. As much as I abhor stupidity, hypocracy is even worse. < By the way I pulled all your posts from 07 and I would like you to show me in which one are rooting for Kimi.
Sorry to break into your discourse against the 'Senna' guys but I sense a lack of objectivity and some double standards here. You appear to have a very strong anti McLaren position on the basis that they cheated, indeed you coined, or at least freely use, the term McCheater. I notice, though, that you did not respond to an earlier post of mine on the subject so I'll pose a straight forward question. You said that Ferrari called team orders at the end of the season that allowed KR to finish ahead of FM and so win the WDC. Did or did not Ferrari cheat (i.e. break the rules) by applying those team orders? If the answer to that is 'yes' (and can it be other?) is there any significant difference between the teams in respect to cheating and should we be calling the red team Fercheaters ?
30. (senna3xwc) > The ironic thing is that several of these self-professed "tifosi" are, unlike me, among Kimi's strongest critics early in the season. I find it amusing and a little pathetic how selective their definition of "ferrari-supporter" and "McLaren apologist" truly is. < Oh, the irony of it all...........
That is just because you called me a liar. And don't worry. Today is dedicated especially to YOU. Tomorrow to your crew. You picked the wrong kid to pick on old man
I would agree with you to a point. But first. I am not anti McLaren and I don't hate them. They are a team with great racing heritage and deserve anyones respect for what they have contributed to the sport over the years. However last year it seamed that there was a different team on the tracks, not worthy of the name, hence McCheaters. It is just a joke anyway. About Ferrari team orders. I guess we all know that all teams have team orders. After all this is a team sport. This is one of the rules that are somewhat bent by everyone. There could be an argument that it is cheating. Or maybe it is just the teams race strategy for the given race. In my opinion the case in Brazil, which ultimately crowned Kimi a champion was of latter example. I believe that Ferrari had their strategy planed at least a week ahead and just executed it with perfection. Team orders would have been them calling Massa and going "HHHMMMM look there are 10 laps to go and we need you to slow down and let KIMI by" I don't think this was the case. Of course this is open for interpretation and I actually find it an interesting material for adebate. As long as people are being realistic and don't try to force their opinions as facts. The only fact is that the official governing body has found nothing wrong with what happened. All teams have been using team orders and they will continue to do so. I think it is better if FIA just take the rule out of the book all together.
(senna3xwc) > I have stuck with the facts of this case, others are taking unproven allegations from Coughlan's affadavit and declaring them facts. If you have a problem with waiting for the actual truth to be disclosed and not simply leaping to conclusions based on hearsay, then please say so.< Now I understand your grudge here. How many damn crows did you get served last year? Damn, I would be grumpy too. Did you grow feathers?
Quote: Originally Posted by 355 View Post but the one I find most offensive as a Ferrari fan on a Ferrari site is how you continually defend Mercedes and Mclaren at evey turn. Well, kiss my arse. (senna3xwc) > I am far more of a Ferrari supporter than you could hope to be. The fact that I refuse to jump to conclusions based on mere allegations, without any supporting facts, is hardly a continual defense of McLaren. I refuse to let an idiotic blind allegience to one marque cloud my judgement. That is a far, far cry from being a Ferrari-hater, as you seem to think. If and when evidence is produced that McLaren is complicit, then AND ONLY THEN will I argue for their being penalized. Unlike you and your tinfoil-hat conspiracy-theory buffoon brethren, I rely on actual facts and not hearsay and certainly not the idiotic rantings of someone who refuses to actually research the FACTS. < I am so touched by your opinion of the people here. Oh, wait, your opinion=fact.
Since this is only about you and the "old man" (by the way, you're not that young ), would you mind continuing your rant privately and sparing the rest of us??? It would be much appreciated...
(senna3xwc) > Quote: Originally Posted by tifosi12 View Post Alonso in, Massa out. (senna3xwc) +1000000 Reply With Quote
(senna3xwc) > I know you to be a real Tifosi, no matter what you say now, and I know you will continue to be if they sign Alonso...but there are a whole lot of fair-weather Ferrari fans here who ought to move their traitorous arses over to some other sites now because they have no right to be here among the true Ferrari faithful. < Can you say hypocrisy?
OK lucky, simmer down. Closing this thread (temp). You've more than made your point. Treading dangerously close to a ban. If I only had the time to read all of this. [edit]Ok, just read (skimmed really) through the thread. Gonna open it back up now, but Lucky, really, we get your point, no more crazy 10,000 quotes, let's get back to good old fashioned pre-race season arguing. I think I speak for just about everyone when we say, "OK, WE GET IT."[edit] Don't start another tirade, at least not tonight. I gotta get some sleep. Game on Wayne. Game on Garth. DM
Don't start another tirade, at least not tonight. could you start again tomorrow - i was having a blast
Its somewhat funny to see it bite him in the ass. Lucky you did a good job but you missed a few. Maybe they were the posts that had to be deleted for the language used on others. Many of those members no longer post here. He loves to use the "Fact" word a lot and yet he is further from the facts than anybody. I got into a debate with him about the year in which MS started to learn Italian and a moderator threw 1 point against me in my profile because I was disputing what to him is actual fact. With all the posts that lucky has reposted here its amazing that Mr senna is still allowed to post....not even a suspension yesterday for calling lucky a child molestor. I guess some can say and do what they like on here as long as they race on the same track as certain others. All in all its making this site look a little biased.
Dave can you please ban this idiot Lucky? It is obvious he has no brain and his only fan is the other moron from Canada?
As usual for you, it perfectly shows what an Idiot you are. Your the one who should be banned for stupidity.
If McLaren and Renault both have the one designated go-for-it driver, I'd think Ferrari would have to come up with an Edsel to *not* win the WCC hands down. ("Uh, oh: Alonso just hit the wall -- you can come from the back now".) ("Oops, Kimi lost a wheel -- you don't have to pull over to let him by, now." ) The WDC will likely be much closer. Second in the WCC might be interesting, with two points-capable drivers at BMW.
Moron. Nice. So throwing names around is ok and not worth banning. I will remind you that is a personal insult and really has no place here.
