So the 'old guard' wants to separate the classics from the newer models? If that's the case I would not attend Cavallino anymore and just write it off as people living in the past. There is also a 'present', and hopefully a 'future' for Ferrari that should not be looked down on. The recent success in F1 was funded by lots of those 355 cars... I'm sure that is overlooked by the Cal spider owners according to that attitude. Modern technology is expensive and it takes a mass produced fairly expensive product to support that developement. If Ferrari was still making "Handmade cars with complex history" they would not even be a mention in today's F1 world. Like Sindo says, times change. Ferrari as a company has changed with the times, but many of the owners have not. I enjoyed seeing the vintage cars, and even had the vintage guru Tom Yang staying at my house. He favors the older cars, but I don't think he would mind if all the cars were on the same lawn, even if they were organized by age. I'll make sure not to disturb Adrian or Gregor while I pass the Grey Poupon to my friend Martin.... BT
DITTO As an aside some people seem to understand this. The Crown Prince of Bahrain is putting on an exhibit of Special Ferrari's at the Bahrain GP. I'll be there with P 4/5 and Dino Competizione. There will also be many other great Ferrari's that span Ferrari's History recognising that it is a continuing thing. I'm also happy that another FCHATTER will be there with his F40. Best
Bill sorry but you seem to have misunderstood my point, firstly I do not claim to speak in the name of anyone but my little self nor would I even considering doing so but the upper part of the concours has always been the one where the older cars are displayed. The fact that a wall was built there has nothing to do with this. All old car enthusiast I am sure look at any new Ferrari model when it comes out but when you have seen one when you have seen them all whereas the older cars have so much individuality of detail and history, surely you see my point.
I'm sure I'll regret wading into this, but here goes. First, a few prefatory comments/disclaimers by way of full disclosure: (a) I've attended all 17 Cavallino Classics, and intend to keep going as long as they continue to be held- I'm on record as saying that it's a great event. (b) I'm fond of John and Alicia Barnes, whom I enjoy running into often when I'm in PB. (c) I really don't want to engage in some protracted on-line colloquy about this- reasonable minds can differ on this stuff, right? Having said all that, I've come to the conclusion that SOME of you are comparing apples to oranges. As a couple of you have opined, there's no reason why these events can't peacefully co-exist. I know that there are hurt feelings and resentment among some of you, but I don't really see the point. Let's face it (and I say this with all due respect), Cavallino and PBSCW are VERY different events, and appeal to very different demographics- and that's fine. Cavallino includes a lot more than just the Saturday concours at The Breakers- while I don't much care about things like the Jet Party and Yacht Hop, and haven't been to Mar a Lago in years, I DO care a lot about the track days at Moroso, not just because it gives me another opportunity to exercise my old Challenge car (I do that pretty regularly anyway), but because of the Historic Challenge races. PBSCW offers nothing similar. As for the concours well, it's just that- why gripe about the lack of 360s, 430s, etc., when newer cars were never intended to be included? They're (unless '01 or older) not eligible for judging, and I guess few owners care enough to prepare them so extensively merely for display. Maybe Cavallino should make a greater effort to encourage those "display only" newer cars, but if you want to see them (and I enjoy them too, by the way), walk through the parking lot at The Breakers- hell, there were 4 575 Superamericas within 50 feet of one another. The Cavallino concours is intended to be more on a par with an FCA National concours (if not perhaps Pebble Beach), so don't go there expecting to see new, production cars. Doesn't Cavallino magazine bill itself as the journal of Ferrari "history"? I've got absolutely no gripe with PBSCW (I spent about an hour and a half there on Saturday afternoon), but it's not the same animal. By all means, go there to see a large number of interesting exotics and semi-exotics (thanks, in significant measure, to the very cordial Jim G.), but don't expect a judged Pebble Beach-style concours or rare old Ferraris. Do expect LOUD hip-hop music, ubiquitous beer stands (and yes, I'm a beer guy- was weaned on the stuff) and hordes of young folks fondling and even taking it upon themselves to sit in/on cars that don't belong to them. Okay, I'm old (55), stodgy, and spent a lot of my spare time over the past 30 years at The Breakers, so that's not exactly my crowd, and seeing Shaq or Vanilla Ice doesn't do it for me, so maybe I'm not in a position to comment- now if it were The Who or Richard Thompson, maybe that'd be another matter . . . Okay, I've beaten this point to death, but let's stop trying to compare two very different events. I certainly agree that it'd be nice if the Cavallino concours and the PBSCW event on Flagler were on different days, but see no reason why Cavallino and PBSCW can't generally complement one another. Hell, I argue for a living (been practicing law since I was 23), but even I don't see the need for some the underlying acrimony here.
I remember one day in Newport watching Bob pick up a Telecaster. Things change and they will continue to but there's no question that the chickens Cavallino kicked have come home to roost...
Ye Ira like you my favorite is the track, no question and certainly there is room for both -and many more- kinds of events during that week: I am sure there will be an auction again eventually and would like to see the whole week become a Monterey equivalent: since it is six months away and on exactly the opposite end of the country it makes perfect sense. What I would see is a venue actively encouraging the driving and display of classic Maseratis, Lamborghinis and etcetterinis: that is a major gap, a need that is not catred to.
I would not be offended by anyone's point / argument, so no worries Ira / Nembo! My point was more of a slippery slope argument. If Cavallino intends to separate (and thereby make classes) the cars on the green from those on the fairway, then the distinguishing characteristics will be emphasized and most likely further classified. Plenty of Daytona owners are proud of their cars, but in 5 or 10 years will they be excluded because they are not 'vintage' enough? Hard to say, and I would hope that as a Ferrari exclusive event, the concours would be left at that. To me it should be good enough to be Ferrari exclusive, and not some random thing where only the 23 best cars in the history of the company are considered up to snuff, while the rest are looked down on. Truthfully, the separation (which as I am reading it is not the choice of the event organizers) is the only thing that really bothered me Saturday at the Breakers. Besides the obvious classification overtones, it was really an inconvenience to go in, then out and around to go back in for the lower field... The discussion comparing the two events is like you say, apples and shoes... The whole Cavallino event seems to be saturated in luxury and wealth (which is fine). Even the track days, you can see some of the most expensive Ferraris produced out thrashing around, which is a close second for my favorite part of the Cavallino weekend. The all makes show seemed to be a response to the PBSCW, but was lightly advertised. If they took the same approach to the all makes show as they did the concours / yacht hop / Jet reception they could possibly capture a really great way to get more sports car owners excited about the Ferrari brand / history. But JT and the PBSCW have a sizeable jump on the type of vibe / scene that the all makes show might be trying to duplicate. I would suggest that if Cavallino wanted to include the all makes show in the future that they change the venue and basically make it less of a public display. It will be tough to oust PBSCW if that is their intent. I could see the Cavallino All Makes Show as a venue for all gearheads to show their cars in a 'safer' environment than PBSCW, and see where that would take it. PBSCW has a good thing going but they just need to address the spectator involvement with unattended cars. I personally enjoyed the PBSCW and wish that they did not schedule on the same day as Cavallino. Maybe they could get a conference call and decide to schedule so that people are not rushed to leave / arrive on a single day. In previous years (I have only been to the past three Cavallino concours) the older cars were on the green which is fine, but you could see the entire display from the entrance at the east side of the green. I just think the concours is much better without two separate viewing areas. BT
For next year we need shuttle buses between the two events as someone already mentioned: both events would get more attendance and...a bulldozer to remove that wall;-)
Bill- I don't want to drone on about this forever, especially since I agree with damn near everything you've said. Just a couple of points: (1) As Marc (Nembo 1777) pointed out, the wall on the croquet lawn, while pretty annoying, wasn't the Cavallino folks' idea, but rather a creation of The Breakers. You're right, of course, about the segregation and inconvenience it encouraged. (2) I seriously doubt that Cavallino was trying to duplicate the vibe of PBSCW with their all-makes show- that's unlikely to appeal to their constituency. I continue to agree with the notion that there's room for both the serious, hard-core Ferrari-centric stuff and the more broad appeal of something like the PBSCW exotic-car extravaganza. Ira
Jeez...all I wanted was a more "expanded" experience at Cavallino on Saturdays(see my previous posts), not to trash Cavallino.All their satellite events are fine, particularly the track days. How often do you get to see classics going around at speed? I'm sure the suggestions put forth here will find their way.
Wow! I've never seen a wall cause so much trouble. It must be fairly recent if it doesn't show up on Google's aerial maps? Still, I'm curious would people still feel/notice the seperation if they had taken out the drink table (shown in the picture below) and just allowed people to walk around to the next level (where the Classiche display was - see the aerial photo I marked up)? I'm still amazed that a least (3) rows of the Breaker's parking lot was filled with Ferrari's and yet they weren't in the show. That to me made it seem less of a show. Even if it were just for display and not to be judged. Isn't that another reason for gathering F-car owners and enthusiasts. Celebrating the beauty of both the car's style and history? Personally, I think they should've used the (2) fairways next to the parking area to accomodate all of the cars. That's just a thought. Bill Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I enjoyed the show, but I really loved the track at Moroso it was awesome to see the cars running. The Parking lot at the breakers was fantastic, but I wish the show itself was a little better. The classic section was awesome, but when it came to everything else I think the FCA national or the Reading concours are on par. Erik
I think the problem is that this is not a car show like the PBSCW event on Flagler, but rather a serious concours d'elegance. My guess is that many of those spectators in the parking lot weren't inclined to: (1) prepare their cars to be judged (which is a major undertaking in terms of time and effort) or even displayed; (2) ante up the cost to participate in such an event (you need to register for the entire event if you want to show your car, and that requires a commitment of money and several days to fully participate); (3) arrive early in the morning and stay until late afternoon. You're right though when you say that it'd be nice if there were a more scenic place to park the many nice spectator cars- it's not tough to stroll the short distance to look them over, but they're in the sterile environment of a parking lot. I doubt though that The Breakers would go for parking them on those fairways, what with all the damage they'd sustain by cars pulling in and out all day, and I can't blame them.
My 2 cents. PLEASE bring an auction back to the party. Perhaps the chief obstacle in this market is finding a sufficient quantity of good cars, given all the other auctions already on the calendar. Perhaps Gooding was dissatisfied with the results of its auction a few years back? Sunday afternoon wasn't the best time to hold it. Thanks for posting the wall diagram. Doesn't help the show at all, does it? Too bad. I remember one year when the 288s were parked off in the vendor area - then another when it was the F40s? Maybe the same year? I recall the owners being unhappy. Why, why do this? I'm unlikely to "show" one of my cars at Cavallino because I don't want the hassle. Let me display something, and I'll have it detailed and park it where you tell me to park it. I don't enjoy having cars judged. Anyone else feel this way? I like Cavallino a lot, enjoy staying at the Breakers and prowling around before the show officially begins. Having the PBSCW makes me more likely to attend Cavallino. I'm sorry about the "versus" in the thread subject, and it seems clear to me that PBSCW arises in part out of dissatisfaction with Cavallino, but ... so what? Two events make me more likely to go than one event. Two events and an auction - I might go every year. Tell me that people are sitting on/in cars at PBSCW and I'll never take any of my cars there. I don't want to stand around all day protecting a car.
PARTY BUS! I don't understand all the controversy...maybe if the party bus was already in effect the aforementioned would be non-existent!
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183195 Best Will That will be dealt with next year at PBSCW. Best
I have heard only rave reviews about PBSCW. I won't miss it next year, I hope it's just as good. I love Cavallino, but prefer shows with more than one marque.
I hear you Ira. When I implied adding more cars for display's sake rather than being judged, I was trying to compare Cavallino with the FCA Annual meet I attended in Virginia back in 2006. Or of pictures I've seen of Concorso Italiano where they had a wide area available for cars and there were plenty of cars on display both classic and modern area. I was not trying to compare it to PBSCW. I don't know if registering cars for the FCA Annual meet or the Concorso Italiano are on par with Cavallino or less? So perhaps the cost does distract from people registering their cars. As this was my time attending both events. I had a great time. I'll definitely be back next year!! And I'll attend both events again! But I did see some things that could be improved on for next year. Mr. G has already said that the issue of attendees getting into people's cars will be addressed next year. It's great that he and the other organizers recognize some of these issues and act on them. It would just be nice to know if the organizers of the Cavallino event were listening or if there's another avenue people could use to make a suggestion for next year's Cavallino event. Just my 2 cents. Bill
Just so there is no misunderstanding. I am simply a friend of and an exhibitor at PBSCW. I have no other involvement. John T and Scott L run the event. They saw the concerns voiced here and will act on them next year. If there are other's please post them up.
A party bus is a good idea. I am happy to see both events! Next year I will have a champagne breakfast at the Breakers in my blazer and a burger and Bud in my tee shirt in the afternoon pn the other side of the moat Martin: do you have a bulldozer lying around;-)?
Just for the record 2 of Ferrari's newest cars were also parked on the front lawn. A 430 Scuderia and a custom 612. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
