+1 Speaking only for myself here. I realize that that other F1 champions have displayed similar attributes that Alonso has. I never liked those attributes in the past champions and I never will. Nor am I blind to the fact that Schumacher didn't contain similar attributes. MS was never my favorite driver and on track he was far from a "saint". However, IMO Schumacher rarely displayed the level of self-centeredness to the point of dismanteling the team that Alonso displays. That's why I don't support Alonso coming to Ferrari. Would FA bring wins to Ferrari?...most likely yes. Would FA bring a WDC to Ferrari?...possibly. Would FA be a catalyst to unravelling the team ?...a very strong possibility. IMHO, Ferrari have too much to risk bringing FA on board not because of his driving skill but because of his poor character attributes. Now, if FA ever does come to Ferrari I will not turn my back on the team. I think I will instead be crossing my fingers and praying that FA behaves himself and hopefully by then he will have grown up from acting like a little boy and have learned how to act more like a man. You said that virtually all F1 champions have these same attributes that FA has displayed. IMO, one of the exceptions is Kimi. He's a very good team player and he has always appeared to display that regardless of his "no1 or no2 status" he will go out and do the best he can for the team. One of the many reasons why I'm very happy he is with Ferrari....oh, and also because he's blazingly fast and extreamly talanted.
Oh no, don't ruin it for me! Don't make Kimi look that nice and good. That's Massa's role. I much rather cherish Kimi as a tatoo covered drunk who parties naked and falls off a deck.
I think FA's 'character' problems resulted from the sitauation at McLaren - they were not apparent with his previous teams. It seems to me it all stemmed from his not having number 1 status at McLaren and finding that his rookie team mate was a lot better than he expected and was probably as good a driver as he, FA, was. It's an ego thing. I don't believe he would cause Ferrari any problems if he joined the team AND was assured number 1 status.
As much as I like Alonso, there is a whiny side to his character: You also saw that when he accused his own Renault team of sabotaging him towards the end of the 06 campaign. Whether that created the necessary pressure on the team is hard to say, but we all know the outcome. Alonso plays the media to get his will. Very much like Alain Prost.
Please point out where I said you claimed he was not a great driver? Thats' right you cannot! I was saying in general that Alonso is a great driver, but he's an ****** (IMO). I was talking about my opinon of him and that for anyone to say he's not a great driver is deluding themselves.
This is an absolutely untenable position. I don't think there is anyone in all of F1 (fans, participants, administration) that thinks Massa was not instructed to pull over and let Kimi take the win - it happened two times. Very obviously, Massa would have preferred to take the win/lead all other things aside. However when the WDC component was added in, Massa instead forfeit his position to let someone else by. That is the very definition of a team order. Since Ferrari did that, they very clearly broke the rules, and if we define "cheating" as breaking the rules, then by that definition they cheated. Anyone who sees it any other way is delusional.
This is insane. Very obviously I would love to buy a Ferrari tomorrow. I have enough cash right now to buy a nice 355, but I am looking to buy a house and need the down payment. I would really prefer to go get a Ferrari tomorrow, but when my future component is added in, I would forfeit the purchase of the car. Massa would have loved to win infront of his home crowd, no doubt, but he needed the down payment insuring his future. HE made a decision. He did not need to be ordered anything by any one. HE DECIDED to be part of the team and let the team know it. It would be only logical if the team was aware of his position to build their strategy around it. As far as I know the FIA rule apply to what teams do on the track during the race, not to the team's members and their personal decisions. The irony in it all is that have Ferrari done it the other way around, same people here who now are saying that Ferrari cheated to the title were going to tear apart the team for being stupid and and waisting the championship. You are right the Ferraris cheated. The silver ones that is.
Besides Massa did not pull over to let Kimi by. It was a well calculated and executed strategy. Massa was very light, ran away and set the pace. I believe it was called "being the rabbit" . It was discussed in great lengths on Speed TV during the race. By the way what is the point of this argument? Ferrari won against a proven cheating team. Fair and square. You should be happy about it instead of trying to discredit the team that this site is named after.
The point is, your missing the point cheating is cheating in whatever form not bending rules when it suits, accept the fact and leave it at that.
You and a couple of others in here make no sense at all on this issue. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE involved in F1 knows what is going on and EVERYONE does it. When EVERYONE does it and it is very hard for the FIA to prove it then they have to let it go. But seeing as you and again, a couple of others seem to think that it is cheating then OK lets punish all the teams and delete all previous records of any F1 season. There now are you guys happy? For anyone to say that one team and not another should be penalized for this stupid rule is bordering if not over the line on lunacy.
Yes it is a stupid rule everyone knows it goes on I agree, but if you admit to having team orders in a race by the FIA standards it is against the rules. so for you and your other friends: Why is it so hard to understand that fact.
So what of the teams that dont admit to having team orders?....now they are liers but not cheaters......I love your thought process
Gah: Kimi's no James Hunt. As for the "no team orders" rule: I think pretty much every team understands that "no team orders" at all is stupid, and that the rule was simply intended to tell the teams not to make it too obvious -- i.e. no repeat of Austria '02. It seems a bit hypocritical for people to call for "designated #1 drivers" in teams while sniping about "cheating" on the team orders rule at the same time. A designated #1 driver implies team orders.
He is the closest we can have to James. I'm glad somebody carried on the long standing tradition after Irvine left the stage.
If I'am wrong I will hold my hands up and admit it, but you if want to jump to lucky's defence that's fine with me I had you with more cred than that but whatever, you know the point but skirt the issue, so I will then agree to differ makes no odds to me.
So clearly you are in favor of sanctions against Toyota and Renault for their infringements of the very same rules for which McLaren got heavily penalized. ...Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were arguing that all teams should have to abide by the same rules. My mistake
There you go again....If your not changing history then your twisting someones words around to suite your needs whatever they may be. Why not just give it up?
You make an interesting point, Clint. I personally think that Schumacher is one of the, of not THE, most self-centered driver in F1 in the past 25 years. He put his own interests ahead of the team's long-term needs by vetoing the selection of a competitive #2 driver. He refused to allow the signing of Mika and he actively fought the team's signing of Kimi. This has been well-documented in the F1 press. That he did his agitating behind the scenes rather in front of the microphones as Alonso did is besides the point. I would make the argument that Alonso is no different from Schumacher in terms of attitude, only in execution. He is simply not as smart as Schumacher but that does not mean his motivations are any different. Fighting to keep the team from signing a star driver for the future is at least as damaging to the team as being a malcontent with interviewers. My argument would be that Schumacher having his way would have led to the team's dismantling but only after he left. That being said, Ferrari has a very, very long history of disharmony among its drivers and within the team. Those of us who remember the Machiavellian environment pre-Todt, particularly during Enzo's time, are not in the least concerned about the arrival of a driver like Alonso. Ferrari has withstood, and prospered, with far more disharmony between drivers and within the team structure. The fact of the matter is at the end of the day, this is a RACING team, where everyone wants the same thing: to win. Ferrari this season employed exactly the same strategy as McLaren: which is to let both drivers race, without favoritism, until one is mathematically eliminated. Massa had the exact same opportunity as Kimi (even better, if you consider his advantages pre-season) and he failed to perform to Kimi's level. As a consequence, he had to take his (rightful) place as #2. Had Hamilton faltered earlier in the season and taken himself out of contention, he too would have been ordered to take a supporting role to Alonso. It could have easily been Ferrari that was experiencing problems between the drivers down to the wire, had they both remained in contention. So for us to argue that Ferrari succeeded based solely on teamwork is to mischaracterize the events of 2007. Ferrari and McLaren utilized the exact same strategy, the weaknesses of that strategy made themselves manifest at the end of the season. However the strengths of that strategy were such that Kimi had to have a miraculous finish to win the WDC. McLaren was as unlucky to lose the championship as Ferrari was to win it. Which strategy is superior? I don't know, would you rather need extraordinary luck to win or would you rather need a catastrophe to lose? I simply do not buy this whole argument that Ferrari requires "teamwork" to win and that Alonso would poison the team's environment. Ferrari survived a season in which one of their trusted members betrayed the team, internal turmoil and infighting reared its head in the team, and power struggles are emerging between Todt and LdM. This is Ferrari politics as usual and the team earned multiple world titles in the past in such environments. Alonso brings speed and consistency to the team. Does he have baggage? Perhaps. But his teams have succeeded in the past with his baggage and Ferrari has succeeded in the past with baggage of its own. The problem here is that there are so many youngsters whose knowledge fo F1 begins and ends with the Schumacher era and think that is the only way things are done in F1. Those of us who have been around the sport for 30+ years and lived through several regimes at Ferrari know differently. I don't see Alonso, a proven champion with a surly disposition, as great a risk to the team's success as having a driver of suspect talents with a personality your mom would like.
What did I twist? I asked if your logic in one situation applies to the other. It is quite simple and straightforward.
Only you. Your long winded post just before shows exactly why you should not be a Ferrari fan. You have gone out of your way to make Ferrari look like demons in F1 yet I cant recall too many posts where you do the same for other teams. Makes one wonder what your purpose here really is.
