275 needs Total Restoration, good price at $200k?

Well Hemi Cudas are fetching seven figures. Far more than most vintage Ferrari's, And WAY more than your Lotus. So their upholstery must be re-done by mega elite restoration specialists. This is just more Ferrari snobbery to make a blanket assumption that a competent Upholstery shop can not follow instructions (and the original upholstery) from the owner as to how he wants his interior remade, just because he works primarily on American Iron. It's very simple, if they don't get it right you don't pay them until they do.

You would be surprised at all the wasteful stuff that the super-wealthy blow their money on.

 

Your analogy is rather weak. I can appreciate a Rolex over a Timex, just as I can appreciate a Ferrari over a Chevy. But I do know of watchmakers who are equally expert at working on a unique Patek Philippe as well as a less unique TAG Heuer(which is, I believe the point that you were trying to make).

 

I look at it this way. Some clunker 275 is for sale for semi-big bucks. The people who could afford the high dollar resto aren't biting. The people who can't afford the high dollar resto also can't afford the sem-big bucks price tag on the car. So the car gathers cobwebs in some dealer's warehouse. It's no different from any other collecter car, be it Corvette, Mustang, or muscle car. Dealer beats the enthusiast to the widow's house, buys up the car, jacks up the price, then it stagnates for years as the dealer waits for some rich guy to write out a fat check and jump on the "I've got a Ferrari" bandwagon.

I'd love to see the video of some guy who coughed up the bucks to buy the car, get it running over a weekend with his buddie's help, and then flog the thing on the highway in front of the closest "wine and cheese" concours show. And I hope they spray several colors of primer on the car before they hit the road with it!!!

 

As these barn finds 275 GTB's are snapped right up you'll have to wait for a while.

 

http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?reqart=SCM_200610_SS

Sheehan has good advice for those shopping a project like this........

 

Yes, that all sounds perfectly fine and I believe it's called fabrication. You shouldn't take your 72 Daytona to Joe's Paint and Body, we all agree, you need a guy who is an expert fabricator and can build something from nothing. This, I hate to tell you, is not unique to the Ferrari world. You see a lot of guys here need to differentiate their cars and the price they paid for their cars and restos, so yes they have to say that their restorer's are akin to the Michelangelo's of the car restoration world when nothing could be further from the truth.

The only difference is these restorers are dealing with people who have more money therefore they can charge more money.

 

And who stands to benefit the most from telling people that only a high dollar resto shop can restore their car???

The high dollar resto shop.

 

My Sicilian grandfather used to say "If you don't know you don't know"

Unless you've been there you don't know. I've been there. The "high dollar resto shop" in most cases saves the owner $$ in the long run. Yes there are some bad apples out there but the good ones are well known for a reason. Corners can be cut for sure but they catch up with you eventually. The guys that flip a car for a buck are masters at cutting corners. If that is your objective good luck. That will also catch up with you sooner or latter. Most of the guys still selling/working on these old cars do it for love as much as money. If they slap it together like a bad Chevelle restoration they aren't around long. The market is thin at the top and like it or not old Ferraris are about the top of the old car hobby. Everyone seems to know everyone else so there aren't many bad restorations that stay hidden long. The good cars are sold quickly and the bad ones..........

 

No one is talking about cutting corners or sloppy restorations. I am talking about taking a Ferrari to a skilled craftsman that has been doing restorations for decades. Someone who may not have a particular knowledge about Ferrari's but about restoration. I have yet to hear from anyone what the magical difference is for restoring a 67 Ferrari 330 vs. a 67 Pontiac GTO. Does Lincoln make special welders that can only be used on Ferrari's? Does' Snap-On make special tools for Ferrari's? What exactly, in detail, makes the Ferrari restoration unique and worth the extra coinage?

 

You seem to be taking both sides! First you claim any upholsterer can do a vintage Ferrari seat to the standards that the experts do because "all he needs is a template" (where will he get that from anyway?). Then you claim you shouldn't cut corners! Well, if Joe Upholsterer does the job to the high enough standard, he's likely to be charging the same or even MORE than the old Ferrari guy who's done 50 of these seats, because Joe will take twice as long to get it right. Joe will have to source a lot of material (pictures, etc. a well as correct leather, frame materials, etc.) he's unfamilliar with, and that takes time, which is money. The expert already has what he needs in both information, pictures, knowledge and materials.

So which is it? Take it to high end Ferrari expert who wil get everything perfect, or not?

Yes, I just have a lowley Europa, but I've done a fair amount of restoration on it and I know what it costs to get it concourse and what you get by making due with what makes sense on a non collectable but rare vintage car. On a vintage Ferrari, you can't take that approach.

Ken

 

Here is another suprising fact, most of the restoration shops don't make any money. This is a very tough business to make money in. The folks that do it do it because they love it. I looked in to starting a shop but the numbers don't look good and I have talked to a lot of restoration guys over the years about this. The big problem is a lot of people do not pay thier bills and cash flow kills these businesses. Ferrari guys now can be some of the hardest to deal with as well. 20 years ago not so much but now people thing they can be uncivil and get away with it. All of this is added to the cost of the Ferarri tax. Also 20 years ago most of the Ferrari restorations were poor compaired to other classics but not any more the level of resotration has gone way up.

 

Wrong. I said a competent Upholsterer . And the template will be from the old upholstery. Even if it is tattered you can get leather grain, stitching, and pattern.

Joe charges a fraction of the "Ferrari Expert", the owner (if he is smart) will provide the Upholsterer with any additional source material.

As usual your argument is flawed. It is not a zero sum game. It is not get everything right with Mr. "Ferrari Expert" or get everything wrong with Joe Upholsterer.
You make it sound as though there is something magical about vintage Ferrari upholstery vs. vintage Cadillac, BMW...Lotus. I would rather have an auto Upholsterer who works ONLY on upholstery rather than a "Ferrari Expert" who does paint, body, engines AND upholstery.

And I own a vintage BMW (as well as late model) and I have owned and restored numerous other vintage cars and I know what I am talking about.

 

Look, I'm no expert in car seats. All I know is if anyone wanted to make a "perfect" Europa seat who only had the standard tattered remains to work with, my eye could tell his seat was not original. BTDT. To get it looking good enough to fool my eye would take a lot more time and money, or the original factory making them like they used to. I agree with you that "anyone" can do it, but my contention is you won't save any money with just "anyone", and if you "shouldn't cut corners" as you flipped to, then take it to the guy who has done it before. You'll probably pay less for a better looking (i.e. original looking) product.

Your BMW was mass produced; vintage Ferraris (and my Lotus) were completly hand made. Big, big difference as I'm sure you understand.

Ken

 

You may think you know what you're talking about but I don't think you do. You ever restored a car that won a ribbon at Pebble Beach? I've restored and won two there. I've also restored one that won one at Villa d'Este. See these valve springs?
Sadly you can't get them at NAPA. If they start to go, and they do, you have to make them yourself. I'd advise finding someone who knows what they're doing because if the ones you make aren't exactly right you'll destroy your engine. If this happens besides destroying a rather nice piece of history you'll have to find someone who can cast a new head and block and your car will be a tad less original and worth about 1 Million Dollars less than one with an original one. I could go on but I won't as either this is something you can understand or it isn't.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Agree 100%. I love these threads by all of the experts who don't understand why people pay so much to re-build these cars. Those are usually the people who have either never put hands to task or have never had to pay the price of poor work. I have done both and I can tell you it is much harder to repair bad, cheap work than it is to pay thre price to do it right in the first place.
Why is everythin so expensive and not possible to be done by Joe at the corner gas station?
Because there are few replacement parts or adequate drawings to go off of. Those 45 year old seats may need more than just Joe who has done many Chevy seats. But, only if you want them to last another couple of years, or if you don't want to pay three times the price you gave Joe in the first place fixing his mistakes.
But then what do I know?
Morris

 

I am someone who knows something about the fdiference between a 330gts and a Pontiac. Yes, there are diferent skill sets and there are diferent tools involved. I invite anyone who disputes this to come to California and go to the shop with me to watch the way it is done by the experts. After you have seen them work you can feel free to tell me there is no diference between the work done on a 330 and a Pontiac.
But then, what do I know?
Morris

 

Yes, I know fabricators that can make valve springs, heads or entire blocks. The engine is the one area where I would consult an expert. The engine is the heart of every car and as I stated in an earlier post quite unique to marque and model. But there is nothing remotely unique about sheet-metal, upholstery, or even trim. A competent, experienced restoration specialist should be able to take the same material used as in the original and re-skin a door panel a rear quarter or a hood. And an upholstery expert should be able to return your interior to new.

 

No, please enlighten us.

 

Once again my words are being misused, misinterpreted or simply ignored. Did I say anything about poor, bad or sloppy work? Did I say anything about "Joe at the corner gas station"? Please point to those posts where I said on intimated such.

What I am saying, so please take the time to read, is that some people are paying a PREMIUM, above and beyond what the work would cost in the free market, i.e. the "Ferrari Tax".

They are paying the premium then justifying in the heads that that premium is acceptable because it was done by a "Ferrari Expert" and his expertise justifies this premium, when in reality it is just a premium for owning a more exclusive marque.

 

I used the same tools to restore my 79 308 that I use on ford focus' to change rusty rotors. Its my first ferrari restoration but not my first car restoration. Attention to detail, skill, passion and a high standard is all thats needed.


http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4503&highlight=79+308+restoration

Paul.

 

Both you and Arlie claim that. Those actively doing restos on hand built vehicles which have won major prizes say you're wrong. Can YOU document where someone did a first class restoration without using shops that specialize in it? Can you quantify your claims with copies of bills, and the success of the car in a show or a top dollar sale? We're not talking Vettes here, or any mass produced car; the subject at hand is for hand built, vintage exotics.

As I posted before, even with my car it would take upwards of $50k to turn a barn find that's all there into a concourse car, and it's nothing as complex as a Ferrari except for the body work. That's why I only have $20k in my car: that's all it's worth to me to have a great driver that also looks pretty nice. But it's not "correct" to the level a vintage Ferrari requires.

Ken

 

+2.

 

That's true for rusty rotors, as well as easy stuff like I've done: changing the MC, rebuilding the carbs, replumbing the brake lines, etc. I bill my own time out at a lot less than a pro shop! And do as good or better a job because no one cares about my car more than I do.

I think the hard stuff that takes advanced skills and equipment is the point of contention in this thread however. My fiberglass body is all one piece, and very thin. To do a professional job repairing spider cracks takes hundreds of hours of prep work (layup, sanding, layup, sanding, etc. etc.) , not to mention the actual painiting. It has more compound curves than a 308 and it all has to be done free hand. It takes an artist to do right. If I attempted this myself or left it to a Vette guy who has never worked with this kind of thin fiberglass, I doubt it would turn out right. I've seen home Europa body work, and it's not pretty in spite of the hours spent on it.


Ken

 

As always when the Flag drops the Bull**** stops or in this case when the Judges walk onto the Field of a Major Event.

 

I don't think you are the typical owner. I think far more 1/2 million dollar cars sit in heated garages and get trucked from show to show that get used.