Grand Am Rolex GT series 430

The Daytona event was won by an RX8 that not only ate the 430s on the banking but all the 997s too.

http://www.grand-am.com/rolex/news/index.cfm?cid=14011

 

Did you know that the driver of the 430 in the article was Nika's (Racerchick) old boyfriend, Ed? Small world.

Art

 

Did you know that the 430 is a challenge car and the car that won is a tube framed car??

 

Welcome to January!

 

+1 on that. Not very much in common with a showroom RX-8.

 

Actually, that'd be incorrect. The car from the article is also a tube frame chassis, just like that race winning Mazda. I'd say the fact that most people can't tell the difference between tube frame and production chassis from photos means that the rules are written effectively....

 

I'm not sure about that. One of the F430's that ran Daytona was driven by an FChatter, maybe from California(?), and he posted some pictures here. Seems like it was a F430 Challenge car with updated aero, backdated brakes, and 18" wheels from a 360. The article does call this chassis an F430GT, but I would guess it is pretty similar to the two that ran Daytona.

Mark

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137418641&postcount=52

Great Stuff

 

That is what I said. The winning car is a tube framed car. The 430 is not. A tube framed car has a ton of advantages over the non tube framed one. Because they look like the production version does not make it the same and provides them with an advantage.

 

The two 430 Challenge entries from the Rolex 24 at Daytona were in fact Challenge cars. However, as I said, this new car (featured in the aforementioned article on the Grand-Am website) is most certainly a tube frame race car. Note the all-carbon bodywork in the photo for a small bit of evidence. The car is a Crawford Racecars built tube frame chassis.

As I said, the fact that this discussion is even taking place means that the rules are working well. It would be hard for anyone to complain about not wanting to watch 'silhouette' cars race when it is nearly impossible to differentiate between silhouette and production body cars.

Look at the details in the attached pictures (roll cage design, engine bay layout, body) to see the hints that this is a tube frame car.
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You're right; that does look like much more than a tweaked Challenge Car. Very interesting.
Mark

 

It does explain a lot. In addition the TRG guys are saying that they had to wind back their 997s to a 7K limit (from 8.2) because of overheating also explaining the apparant Super Car performance of the RX8s.

 

Taken for Grand Am Rule Book. Enjoy for what it is worth.

GT REGULATIONS
General Class Explanation and Purpose

The GT class for 2008 will be comprised of two distinct preparation methods, all designed to have cars at a similar competition level for GT class racing.
Prep 1 Unibody GT - This category is reserved for production cars with little or no modifications. Grand-Am will define each car separately and specify modifications individually.

Prep 2 Semi-Tube GT - This category is for cars with modified production or tube-frame chassis. They may be front-wheel drive cars converted to rear-wheel drive or they may be cars that require physical
modifications to be competitive in GT. Specified tube-frame construction is allowed. Alternative
engines from the original manufacturer may be approved.

SECTION 1 - APPROVED MODELS
1-1 Approved Models - Grand-Am has developed these specifications for competition automobiles that
will participate in the category titled "GT". Cars must have been in production for road use or meet
homologation criteria, and have been/or be for sale to the public in a regular dealer offering.
Approved models, unless otherwise stated are to be current production models or those no older
than three years after the end of production.

1-2 The following cars are recognized as eligible models.
1-2.1 Acura TL prep 2
1-2.2 BMW E46 prep 1
1-2.3 BMW M6 prep 2
1-2.4 Chevrolet Corvette C5 prep 1 or 2 and C6 prep 1 or prep 2
1-2.5 Dodge Stratus Coupe prep 2

1-2.6 Ferrari 360 Challenge prep 1
1-2.7 Ferrari 430 Challenge prep 1,prep 2

1-2.14 Mazda RX8 prep 2

SECTION 2 - Detailed Specifications

2-6 Ferrari 360 Challenge (Prep 1)
2-6.1 Stock engine at 8500 RPM.
2-6.2 Headers allowed.
2-6.3 May use alternate front fascia #JMBGA05-1.
2-6.4 Must use original brakes or as allowed in brake section.
2-6.5 Minimum weight is 2550 lbs.
2-6.6 Maximum width as produced.
2-6.7 Additional specifications - TBD.
2-6.8 OEM fuel cell location required.
2-6.9 May use OEM ABS.
2-6.10 Tire sizes are 245/645-18 front and 305/675-18 rear.

2-7 2006 Ferrari 430 Challenge prep 1 prep 2
2-7.1 May use # ANSA-GA-(TBD) front nose assembly otherwise body cannot be altered from
OEM specifications.
2-7.2 Engine must be stock Prep 1 & 2 may use GT2 production 6 speed Hewland gearbox.
2-7.3 Minimum weight is Prep 2 2600 ,2704 with Dp transaxle, Prep 1 2650
2-7.4 Brake rotor sizes are 380 front and 355 rear, Prep 2 calipers, or 360 challenge brakes
2-7.5 Must use original fuel cell location.
2-7.6 Must use 360 challenge front hub assembly.
2-7.7 Allowed to use exhaust headers.
2-7.8 May use OEM ABS.
2-7.9 Tire sizes are 245/645-18 front and 305/675-18 rear. Prep 2 tires are 305/660-18 front and
305/675-18 rear

2-14 Mazda RX8 (Prep 2)
2-14.1 20B Cosmo three rotor (Mazda Spec parts). 2.0 liter, 9.7 compression ratio, 3-52mm throttle
bodies, maximum of 6 injectors, maximum fuel pressure 4.2 bar, intake manifold is free.
Call Grand-Am for parts list at 386-947-6681.
2-14.2 Minimum weight 2200 lbs or 2288 lbs with DP transaxle
2-14.3 Six-speed transmission.
2-14.4 Maximum body width is 73.5 inches.
2-14.5 Engine set-back 5.125 inches from spindle centerline to 1st spark plug.
2-14.6 Complete rear wing height w/ end plates cannot exceed roof height.
2-14.7 Fuel capacity 24 gallons May use oil in fuel.
2-14.8 Allowed larger/higher exhaust position .
2-14.9 Tire sizes are 285/645-18 front and305/660R18 rear.

 

Haha you guys want a $24k car to come out of the showroom and compete with a $240k car so that the Ferraris can always win?

I read something on here when the Daytona race just finished and people were saying the RX8 had an advantage on the straights because it was a tube frame car. What kind of sense does that make?

You want to know why the Mazda was so good (besides the team)? The damn engine. Rotaries love to be run hard, and endurance racing does not deter them. Stop-and-go kills rotaries more than running them at race temps/distances. I love my RX7. Think about how complex a piston engine is, and if you understand rotaries and how to tune them, its a very effective formula. Anyways, a damn good engine is how the Mazda was faster than everyone else on the straight later in the game (when every other team had to be conservative with their motors). Good for them. Besides being a Mazda owner in the last year and half, I've always had great respect for that company. It's said that on any given weekend there are more Mazdas on a racetrack in this country than any other brand. Gotta love that.

 

Mazda can't even compete in Formula 1, that's how good they are.... That rotary engine just won't hang together at 20k rpm like Ferrari will.... : - )

 

Erm...not really...
The rotary engines, as said by Lindsay Ross above..thrives on revs and running hard. If you know what's the architecture of a rotary engine you'll realize that they have less moving parts and no pistons and rods and pins etc..etc.. In fact once it spins, it'll want to spin on end..which is also the curse of a rotary in stop and go driving (minimal engine braking and gotta use a lotta brakes)...Stop & Go driving 'kills' the rotor tips which is the bane of rotary motors but it seems they've gotten the lifespan longer now..
As for F1 foray(s) the rules stipulates piston engined V8s or V10s or V12s and oft changed throughout the years but it has and always been piston engined power. Mazda, with their rotary engines did quite well in those old LeMans days with the awesome 787B(?) racers and won a few against the Lancia and 956s. As you know the LeMans is a 24hour gruelling race with very long straights where terminal velocities of 230+mph are common..
My brother used to own the Savanna FC and Efini FD and they were quite a stonking drive..

 

speaking of the legendary 787b, the engine in that car was epic... 700+ hp in race trim rpm restricted, but the engineers said it was easily putting out over
900 hp when let loose 10,000+ rpm! won 24hrs lemans, and reportedly could've gone another 24hrs, the engine was that robust. it was very compact and light, all this with early 90's technology. awesome stuff.

 

Jeff, are you going to have an opportunity to drive the Level 5 car?

 

Here is the problem with what you are saying. The Rolex series is basically a spec class. All of the cars have weight and engine restrictions to make them "equal". If there are cars ther are obviously MUCH faster than all of the other cars, the formula that is used for the faster car is not correct. I'm not bashing the Mazda, It ran a very good race, but when it's passing all of the other cars in it's class, at a substantially higher speed, something is not right. I feel the same way about the Audi diesel cars as well. Formulas are designed to be tweeked to keep the racing close.



Darrell.

 

See Vlamgat's post No.12. All things being more or less equal but most need to conserve while a few can sustain the heat (no pun intended)..
I'm not 'championing' Mazda, neither do I dislike the marque. I'd prefer Ferraris and/or Porsches to rule but we've got to give credit where it's due..

 

At the moment I'm driving the #69 SpeedSource RX-8 in Rolex GT all season, so no plans to change that at the moment. Level 5 had Andy Wallace behind the wheel at Homestead though, so it seems like they have their testing / driver lineup more or less under control!

And just more food for thought... Anyone ever consider that with vastly different cars all tuned to a specific set of rules, there might be some circuits that favor one car more than another? For instance, if it was the 24 Hours of Lime Rock instead of Daytona, we might see a considerably different outcome (ie Pontiac GXP.R runaway)?

Fact is, Grand-Am does a remarkably good job of leveling the playing field. People can complain about the tube frame cars being eligible against production chassis', but the reality is that without tube frame cars it would be a largely Porsche parade. Love them or hate them, the tube frame factory Pontiac's, Mazda's, BMW's, and now Ferrari's are adding a lot of flavor to Grand-Am's GT class. And the racing all season has been and will be superb. And Daytona is ONE race at ONE track, not to mention the fact that the Porsche's (3 of them) were duking it out with the RX-8's until about 6 hours from the end.

Last observation from an 'insider' perspective... The Ferrari at Daytona (in Challenge spec) had NO shortage of straightline speed, so the statement that the RX-8 ate the 430 or the 997 GT3 on the banking is somewhat (read: very) erroneous. If you had a radar gun on the cars in qualifying you'd know that the Porsche and Ferrari were both considerably faster on the banking. The Mazda goes well at Daytona, but it isn't all about straight line performance. It has a good balance of speed, handling, tire wear, and most importantly RELIABILITY! Like any car, it will have its strong tracks and its weak tracks. Just happens to be strong at Daytona, where they just so happen to run a prestigious 24 hour race!

Having said that, it would be interesting to see what a proper team could do with the Ferrari (Challenge or tubeframe). No disrespect AT ALL to the Mastercar guys, but showing up relatively last minute without the development, prep work, planning, or driver lineups that most of the front running US-based teams put into this race certainly stacks the deck against them. All things considered, they did a nice job.

I think we'll see that extra effort on a Ferrari team soon enough, if this new car is any indication.

 

This is probably the most retarded thing I've read on this site. I'm sorry.

I love Ferrari as a company, story, product, and a legend, but you are on some serious drugs if you think that a Ferrari F430 is going to rev to 20,000 rpm. If you are specifically talking about an F1 engine... i believe it is called comparing apples to oranges?




On the other hand, great insight with some other posts.

 

It's obvious I was talking about the 2.4 liter V8 F1 engine.. Secondly Mazda in my opinion are junk.... If they were that good they would sell like Nissan and Toyota but they don't and according to consumer reports, they are what my opinion says.

 

How many people in the American public are passionate about motorsports? Every review of Mazda says they are more fun to drive than their competitors, and I full agree. Sales volumes is not a direct measure of success. Nissan is getting more bland by the minute, Toyota are able to sell cars without even trying but even their quality is slipping as of late. Besides, name a Toyota car that is fun to drive? Mazda has never been about being the number 1 car company in the world, and that's why they can still stay true to their roots, a la Ferrari. The parallels are evident, and you're really out of your mind if you think F Cars are maintenence free and 100% reliable.

Point is, you are free to have your own opinion, but Mazda is a company deeply rooted in motorsports.




Also, of course you are talking about a couple million dollar 2.4 v8. How does that compare to a rotary (which aren't even allowed in F1)? You think a rotary won't rev high? Haha. A rotary will make torque and power all through its rev range, unlike a piston motor. It will act like a turbine, the higher you go, the more it will produce. The limiting factor is the Eccentric Shaft, which is supported at either end via the end housings and bearings. The center is unsupported (in a 2, 3 rotor) to allow passage of oil between the bearings of the rotors and their contact with the E-shaft. So at very high RPM the E-shaft will flex slightly. If you make an E-shaft of a very expensive, exotic material you will be able to rev far beyond stock E-shaft ranges, which are limited to around 14,000 rpm. So, with parts a consumer can buy from Mazda, theoretically you can construct an engine that is ABLE to rev that high. 11,000 pretty standard and RELIABLE. Now think about if you had a large budge to develop that.

 

+ eleventy billion.

This was a reasonable discussion about Rolex GT, but it's turned into anti-fanboi inanity.