Engine Dies During Downshift | FerrariChat

Engine Dies During Downshift

Discussion in '348/355' started by Coolhand, Feb 29, 2008.

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  1. Coolhand

    Coolhand Karting

    Mar 30, 2007
    193
    Overland Park Kansas
    I was out having a little midwinter therapy session in my 1999 F355 GTB. I had been driving the car (not aggressively) for about 15 minutes after letting it warm up for about 10 minutes. Everything seemed normal, so I decided to get a bit more aggressive. I did two 8500 RPM shifts (first and second gears.) By this point I was coming up on a stop sign, so I put the transmission (manual transmission) into neutral and stepped on the brakes. As I stepped on the clutch to put the car in neutral and let off the gas, the RPMs dropped off (obviously) and subsequently the oil pressure dropped off as it normally does. But this time the low oil pressure light inside the oil pressure gauge came on and the engine died. The oil pressure gauge was indicating somewhere between 70 PSI and first thick line on the gauge. (The oil pressure was not anywhere close to zero when the light came on.) My car has never done this before. I stopped at the stop sign, and turned the ignition key off. I checked the oil level in the engine, and according to the dipstick, the oil was well between the min and max lines. The oil appeared nice and clean still, and it's been less than 2,000 miles since my last annual service (oil change.) I was satisfied that I still had oil in the engine so I got in and started my car up. The engine started right up and the oil pressure came up right away to where it normally does after the car is warm and the low oil pressure light and buzzer inside the oil pressure gauge extinguished right away after the engine started. (When the car is warm and the engine is at idle, the oil pressure normally is between the first thin and first thick marks above zero.) [Sorry, I haven't been able to figure out what PSI each hash mark on the oil pressure gauge is supposed to indicate.] So I drove off wondering what just happened. I decided to take it easy on the car and go home. This problem of the low oil pressure light coming on and the engine dying as I started to decelerate and downshift persisted every time I would come to a stoplight or stop sign. Basically, if I stepped on the clutch and let off the gas, and the oil pressure started to drop, the engine would die. (I'm assuming that this is some sort of computer protection system that shuts down the engine if low oil pressure is sensed.) After cycling the ignition key off, and then back to start, the engine would start right up and run normally. This happened probably 8-10 times on the way home, but then magically things went back to normal. I would come up to a stoplight, and step on the clutch while letting off of the gas, the oil pressure would drop to where it normally does (the first hash mark above zero PSI,) no lights or buzzers would come on, and the engine would continue running normally. I decided that it still was best to cut my therapy session short and continued home uneventfully with no more abnormal issues. So Fratelli, what gives? Can you help me out on this one? When I start my car up cold the oil pressure normally goes to the hash mark just below 140 PSI and then it progressively drops off as the engine warms up. (I'm assuming that is normal.) Once the engine is warm the oil pressure at idle power usually resides between the first thin and first thick hash marks above zero PSI. (I'm assuming that is normal as well.) At 70 MPH in 5th gear on the highway, the oil pressure indicates usually between the 70 PSI hash mark and the next thin hash mark greater than 70 PSI.
     
  2. James in Denver

    James in Denver Formula 3

    May 23, 2006
    2,136
    Centennial Colorado
    Full Name:
    James in Denver
    I'm not a 355 owner, but it doesnt sound oil related. If your engine dies (ie. goes to 0 RPM) for some reason (no spark? no gas?) then your oil pump would stop turning and the warning light would go on.

    Just guessing, but if thats the case, the real problem is not oil pressure reducing, its why does your engine want to die when you put in the clutch?

    Hopefully, someone with a 355 can answer.

    James in Denver
     
  3. Miltonian

    Miltonian F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2002
    5,966
    Milton, Wash.
    Full Name:
    Jeff B.
    Has the battery died or been replaced recently? Re-initializing necessary to stabilize the idle?
     
  4. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,071
    Pocono Sportscar
    Full Name:
    Jim McGee
    FYI,

    The ECU on the 355 does not have a system of sensing the oil pressure. if you loose oil pressure, the engine will continue to run. The gauge is your only safety.

    Sounds more like there is a fuel management problem of some sort.

    Best regards, Jim
     
  5. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

    Aug 4, 2006
    8,329
    Palos Verdes
    Full Name:
    Vince V
    Completely agree. You are noting a side effect of the real problem and incorrectly associating it as the cause. Look to the fuel system as the cause - idle settings would be my cue. The car holds idle at warm up, but not after. The cold idle setting is working but the normal one isn't. I assume that you can sit at idle and toe the throttle to keep the revs up. Might be something in the throttle linkage too? Whatever, your oil is fine; look elsewhere. Also, not likely it is ignition related.
     
  6. Coolhand

    Coolhand Karting

    Mar 30, 2007
    193
    Overland Park Kansas
    The battery in my car is less than one year old. Back in November/December I had the factory headers replaced with a new set of Tubi headers (which I might add are fantastic!) The job of replacing the headers took a bit longer than anticipated, and the battery was drained while the car sat in the shop. That's the only time recently that the battery went dead. I always keep the car hooked up to a battery tender when it is parked in my garage. After driving the car I'll hook up the battery tender, and the solid red light (charging) will come on for a few minutes and then extinguish, followed by the steady green light (fully charged.) Electrically speaking, everything seems normal with the car. Like I said, this problem with the engine dying upon deceleration didn't start until after I did a few redline shifts and then the problem seemingly corrected itself. Does the F355 ECU have a rev limiter? Could I have hit the rev limiter, activated it, and then for some reason have the rev limiter not "reset" itself after the RPMs go below redline?

    Upon cold start up, the car will idle at about 1000 RPM and the idle is very stable. Today was no different. After the car was warm today, and after each time the engine died even upon re-start up the engine would idle at about 1000 RPM and it was a stable idle. I didn't have to toe the throttle to keep the revs up.
     
  7. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,071
    Pocono Sportscar
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    Jim McGee
    what model year is the 355?..
     
  8. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,071
    Pocono Sportscar
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    Jim McGee
    check the air intake between the mass airflow meter and the plenum chambers. also check the idle air bypass tubes for any vacuum leaks. if you have loose air intake, or a vacuum leak anywhere after the mas airflow meter, the engine will react as you describe. also, check all the vacuum lines connected to the plenum chambers.

    while the engine is idling, check for the leaks.

    best regards and good hunting....

    Jim
     
  9. Coolhand

    Coolhand Karting

    Mar 30, 2007
    193
    Overland Park Kansas
    It's a 1999 F355 GTB 6-speed.
     
  10. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

    Aug 4, 2006
    8,329
    Palos Verdes
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    Vince V
    Hmm, battery you say...

    Thinking about a dead battery, but if the car starts, that ain't it.
     
  11. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
    10,244
    U.S.A.
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    goth
    How often do you drive/run the car? If you don't drive it much, your old fuel will get gummy and partially clog your injectors.
     
  12. Gershwin

    Gershwin F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2005
    6,415
    Kentucky
    I'm no mechanic - but it could be an ECU burp due to the heat.
     
  13. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
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    Mr. Sideways

    It doesn't sound normal to me. My 348 doesn't go up that high on cold start. 355 owners, chime in!
     
  14. group77racing

    group77racing Formula Junior

    Sep 5, 2006
    453
    Often Imitated
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    Never Duplicated
    +1 I'd check all those vacuum spots first plus the IAC valve itself. you say it idles at 1000 rpm on cold start up and on hot restarts but you didn't say that the idle would start out at 1500 rpm cold for example and settle down to 1000 when warm. The idle should be higher than 1000 rpm on cold start-up and settle down with coolant temp rise. Also, the IAC might be the issue if its not in the vacuum system because when your pushing in the clutch and the rpm's drop the IAC can't react (open) fast enough to catch the drop.
     
  15. Coolhand

    Coolhand Karting

    Mar 30, 2007
    193
    Overland Park Kansas
    I certainly believe that I found the problem. On the driver's side air intake, the tube that feeds air into the air filter box, had slipped off the air filter box completely. So that bank of cylinders were being fed with air being taken in from around the engine bay instead of through the intake at the base of the C-pillar. I'm assuming that would cause the problems that I described to you all. My next question is this- now that I've driven the car in such a state, do I need to be concerned with potential engine problems as a result of driving without that tube connected? I'm thinking that spark plug fowling might be an issue due to an excessively rich mixture or something along those lines. Also, there don't appear to be any clamps holding those tubes onto the air filter boxes on either side. On my engine they appear to just slip onto the flanges on the air filter boxes on both sides without any clamps. Is this the way it's supposed to be, or am I missing some clamps or other fasteners back there?
     
  16. mksu19

    mksu19 Formula 3

    Jan 4, 2008
    1,864
    LAX / YVR / MNL
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    Capt. K. Banzon
    Sounds to me like your car is either running too rich or too lean. Had a similar problem with my Dodge truck. It would run real well but when I down shift it gets flooded and just croaks. It seems as if you got some sort of fuel management problem. I had to replace the faulty sensors on my truck cause as I said, it was making the truck run either way too rich or way too lean. Hope that helps. Good luck!
     
  17. Dr_ferrari

    Dr_ferrari Formula 3
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 2, 2003
    1,071
    Pocono Sportscar
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    Jim McGee

    Just hook back up, turn off the battery switch for one minute, switch back on, start the car and let idle for 10 minutes and the engine will reaquire it`s settings.

    best regards and good find...

    Jim
     
  18. Vegas-Guy

    Vegas-Guy Formula 3

    Nov 25, 2007
    1,828
    Austin, TX
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    Reg
    #18 Vegas-Guy, Mar 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Is this what you yours looked like? Mine was off as well (found mine while switching the cat ECU's) but I never had any engine problems.

    P.S. I don't have clamps on mine either...
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. Coolhand

    Coolhand Karting

    Mar 30, 2007
    193
    Overland Park Kansas
    Thank you Dr_Ferrari. I took your advice and turned the battery switch off for one minute and then turned it back on. I then let the car idle for 10 minutes. At first the idle was pretty rough and fluctuating, but after about 5 minutes or so, the idle smoothed out and everything seemed normal. After letting the car warm up, I decided to take it for a drive. I drove about 50 miles before I stopped for lunch. The car ran fine (it never died while downshifting.) There was one downshift where I stepped on the clutch and the oil pressure warning light came on momentarily and I thought that the engine was going to die, but it didn't and the light extinguished. So, I thought that the problem was fixed. I stopped for lunch and let the car sit in the shade for about 45 minutes. After lunch I jumped back in and off I went- seemingly everything was copasetic. I was on a two-lane highway and everything was fine- no warning lights, no engine dying, no engine rough running, nothing to make me think that anything was wrong. I came up on a small town and had to slow down for some stop-and-go traffic and that's when the problems started. The "SLOW DOWN" light started flashing, so I pulled into a parking lot and shut the car down thinking that I would let the cats cools down and see what happens. I sat there for about 20 minutes and then started the engine back up. The slow down light was still flashing, so I shut the engine back down immediately. I sat there for about another 20 minutes and then started the engine back up. The slow down light was out, so I proceeded to drive home gingerly. Back out on the highway things seemed normal again. Then I came up on another small town and some more stop-and-go traffic. This time when I slowed down, the "CHECK ENGINE" light illuminated. All engine parameters looked normal: Oil pressure about 105 PSI at 4,000-5,000 RPM, Oil Temperature about 190 degrees, Coolant Temperature at about 170 degrees. So nothing was out of the ordinary on the gauges. At this point I figured that the problem is probably an oxygen sensor with the check engine light on, and the previous "SLOW DOWN" light on. I continued home (about 50 miles) with the check engine light on (the only abnormal indication on the dash at this point) and continued to monitor all other parameters. Nothing else gave any indications that anything was wrong- no loss of power, no rough running engine, no funny noises, no smoke, nothing. So what do you think now? I'm assuming that a mechanic with the right diagnostic computer can plug in and isolate what made the CEL come on.

    On a side note: Like I said before, I recently had the factory headers (which were just beginning to leak) replaced with new Tubi headers. I didn't have any problems before I had the headers replaced. I have Hyper-flow catalytic converters, and Tubi exhaust on the car. The Hyper-flow cats, and Tubi exhaust with the factory headers were on the car when I purchased it about a year ago. I figured that the factory headers were on their way out, so as a preventative measure I decided to put on the new Tubi headers. The Tubi headers were put on the car less than 200 miles ago.
     
  20. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
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    Mr. Sideways
    I'd be surprised to learn that 355's have more than 80-90 PSI oil pressures at 3,000 RPM cruising, or toppping out any greater than 105 PSI at redline.

    Can you remove your airfilter cover to verify that there is no oil in your air filter from an overfill condition?
     
  21. James in Denver

    James in Denver Formula 3

    May 23, 2006
    2,136
    Centennial Colorado
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    James in Denver
    I think the issue with the 355 CEL is discussed alot on FChat, and I seem to remember it dealt with the O2 sensors or the Cats, hopefull someone with a 355 can reply or you can search the 348/355 section for "CEL" or "CHECK ENGINE".

    James in Denver
     
  22. No Doubt

    No Doubt Seven Time F1 World Champ

    May 21, 2005
    72,740
    Vegas+Alabama
    Full Name:
    Mr. Sideways

    No need to guess. OBD2 scanners can be purchased on Amazon.com for a mere $30.

    You own a 355! A 6 figure car!

    Go spend the $30 to own the scanner that will tell you what error codes have been triggered.
     
  23. Gershwin

    Gershwin F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2005
    6,415
    Kentucky
    As I said earlier I think this is something electrical/heat related. What I mean by that is this exact same thing happened to me last summer, verbatim. I had the car shipped and my mechanic found an ECU actually installed backward but we also concluded we needed to disapate some of the heat w/in the engine compartment. He also installed a heat shield around my tubi to deflect from some other systems. I too have tubi, Stebro headers and hyper flow cats so I'm introducing more heat from several components. When we start to introduce, test pipes, hyper flows, tubi's and such we are introducing additional heat that can cause other issues w/ sensors, ECU's and alternators. My mechanic put a couple hundred miles on my car after he corrected those two items and states all is good. So I'd check your ECU's and consider some heat shielding.

    Just some thoughts

    Good luck
     

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