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348 gearbox exchange

Discussion in '348/355' started by fatbillybob, Mar 8, 2008.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 fatbillybob, Mar 8, 2008
    I think doing a 348 gearbox exchange program would be great if someone would do it. I am actually surprised at the frequency of these boxes blowing. Car breakers have engines cheap but gearboxes are a hot commodity. I hear all kinds of funny numbers. I just taked to a breaker today he says he mostly sells to dealers and gets $7-10k for a used box. Dealers then mark up and the box gets to you and me at $15k then make more on the install. About 10+ years ago when I rebuilt my first box FoH had the only used box I could find for $17k. Similarly, I fixed another guys box for $100 bucks while the pro's estimate was also in the $15k zone. Back in the day I rebuilt my box for about $3k bearings and pinion gears. I think when we rebuilt Ernie's box it was also about $4k but we got some used grears from plugzit and a new pinion from daniel. Rumor has it that new gears are extremely hard to find but bearings and synchros are plentyful. Main and Layshafts are unobtainable. Pinion drive gears get destroyed all the time and I think they are around $3,500 now for the set partly due to the euro. These pinion sets were 1/2 that cost 5 years ago. I think daniel got the last new box from ferrari and had to sell his sole.

    Guys give me a feel for what you would pay for a rebuilt box with exchange of a rebuildable core?

    These cars are not driven hard nor often by many. 5000miles could take 5 years for some of you. Would you insist on new synchros with every box for maximum life or synchros within ferrari spec. for an unknown life?

    As a data point I retult my box 10+ years ago and reused my old synchros within ferrari spec and I have track/raced only for the last 10 years and still my synchros are good.

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. Saint Bastage

    Saint Bastage F1 Rookie

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    #2 Saint Bastage, Mar 8, 2008
    My 3rd gear synchro is near it useful life. I need to get it done. I just completed my major and have to wait for the bank account to refresh. I was thinking about waiting till next winter but all these gearbox issue's are scaring me. Maybe I better do it now.
     
  3. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 PAP 348, Mar 8, 2008
    Sounds like a great idea FBB!! :):)

    I dont know what dollar figures for this exchange program mate, but I am sure you will figure it out. :):)

    Also, if you are going to do, do it properly. Replace all synchro's and bearings. Just include that into the cost of the gearbox/exchange mate. :):)
     
  4. rimoore

    rimoore Formula 3

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    #4 rimoore, Mar 8, 2008
    I love the idea and hope it would cost less then 5k to rebuild a gearbox.
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 fatbillybob, Mar 8, 2008
    Before you jump to conclusions i would do a possible fluid change and ensure that the shifter was optimally aligned. 3rd is a tough gear becasue it is in our power zone left and back. Therefore there is a tendency to shift too fast and dump the clutch out too fast and grind. Be very deliberate and focused for a drive or 2 and check to make sure it is not driver induced. Different Fluids have an amazing effect on F gearboxes. 348 shift cable go out of alignment all the time as evidenced by each gear position having the stick in asymentrical positions in the gate. Then if you give up look at your box.
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 fatbillybob, Mar 8, 2008
    Yes but Ferrari has a position of if you open the box change the synchros. With my race experience and box durability I wonder if the added cost is worth it if the synchros are well in spec.. Those things aren't exactly cheap but like a bunch of 348 waterpumps. My guess is you could easily add $1000 in cost just for synchros but Daniel would need to comment on that.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 fatbillybob, Mar 8, 2008
    In actual costs without labor yes unless you do as PAP says and do all new synchros. My guess would be that all new synchros, bearings, and one gear could easily hit $5k just in parts no labor. If you did it yourself and did not break any parts perhaps $2.5k? Then there is the shipping and insurance for this heavy weight item. You can add a little more if you start magnafluxing cases, send them out for painting etc....
     
  8. 3forty8

    3forty8 F1 Rookie
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    #8 3forty8, Mar 8, 2008
    Other than the fact that you have most of us confused with a watch retailer I like your idea! :D
     
  9. PassionIsFerrari

    PassionIsFerrari Formula 3

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    #9 PassionIsFerrari, Mar 9, 2008
    Tremendous idea... Nothing about the 348 scares me except for the gearbox (this from a guy that had a bearing toast his motor)....but pricing motors (like the one plugzit had for sale) at the time were $7500...but gearboxes are the one thing that with all the horror stories scares the crap out of me...I don't know if they are due to shifter cables going out of alignment, ring nuts coming loose, or whatever....but its a faliure that seems to happen and is very expensive... To me, its the last frontier of reasonable 348 ownership that has not been conquered... $5k on the average would be very fair, and should acceptable to most... I would pay $5k for a rebuilt gearbox...
     
  10. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 PAP 348, Mar 9, 2008


    I can understand that mate. :):)

    But I would be happy to pay $1000 extra for new synchros in the box. ;);)

    Worn or not, may as well do it, then they will be right for another 17yrs + hopefully. :):)
     
  11. Kevinbag

    Kevinbag Karting

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    #11 Kevinbag, Mar 9, 2008
    From my recent experiences with my box!!! and searching worldwide for a replacement I will be very happy, with the biggest smile pay $ 7000 for a rebuilt box.
     
  12. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 fatbillybob, Mar 9, 2008
    Car breakers have motors up the ying yang. They are plentyful because 348 motors do not break and eventhough the single timing belt is an issue most breakage is not catastrophic (just bent valves) so most will rebuilt their own motors. Gearboxes are a whole nother animal. Gearboxes are rare and expensive if you can find them. The problems have been solved in my opinion by me. I think the problem is if you follow ferrari's assembly protocal you will repeat the mistakes. I have posted on the issue before and probably rebuilt more of these gearboxes than anyone and extensively raced my box and problem solved. I even got Ernie convinced I am right! Now that is a hard sell. Those who have followed my assembly ideas also seem to not have any recurring problems. Reiner took it a step further and bypassed the Ferrari network for the proprietary bearing and designed a fix to use an off the shelf side bearing. So these boxes are very workable and people are just scared of them because of the unknown. Actually they are very simple..just think how the italians would do something after 3 bottles of wine at lunch and you gotta 348 gearbox. See no problem...
     
  13. Saint Bastage

    Saint Bastage F1 Rookie

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    #13 Saint Bastage, Mar 9, 2008

    I've tried the "very deliberate" route...Didn't work. No grinding at low RPM, high RPM shift is not permitted at all, in or out of 3rd. Grinds every time. My Major was just completed at FoNE. I informed them of the issue. They checked all adjustments, changed oil (clutch oil was real bad) and concluded the synchro is about done. They wanted $6k for a tranny job done during the major, I need to reload the bank account before I can do it. Thought seriously about Redline superlight shockproof. Spoke with "redline" representative who said "do not use a friction modifier when a bad synchro is suspected". He recommended a heavy oil. Ended up with Aguip at Redlines recommendation. I decided to limp through until I could financially do it right.
     
  14. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 fatbillybob, Mar 9, 2008
    From the numbers I have seen 6k is a deal. I'd get that in writting.
     
  15. TheOnlyest

    TheOnlyest Formula 3

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    #15 TheOnlyest, Mar 9, 2008
    Well, i'm convinced! God forbid, if I ever need my tranny rebuilt or repaired... FBB is gettin a free trip to Vegas!
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #16 fatbillybob, Mar 10, 2008
    Does that include female workshop apprentices?
     
  17. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran

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    #17 vvassallo, Mar 10, 2008
    Put me down for the $5K option; I could find some extra cash for all new synchros. The way I see it, I am the last owner this Ferrari is going to have so I'd do it all and do it right - with stooge input of course! :) BTW, my trannie is perfect as is the linkage.
     
  18. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #18 Bullfighter, Mar 10, 2008
    I'm sure Chris really flogs the thing in neutral.
     
  19. TheOnlyest

    TheOnlyest Formula 3

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    #19 TheOnlyest, Mar 10, 2008
    Well ummm... I uhhhh... ummm, I cant promise anything on that, but all the pizza & beer you can put down your neck is guaranteed!
     
  20. BT

    BT F1 World Champ
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    #20 BT, Mar 11, 2008
    I'd say $7k is reasonable for a rebuild.
    Just my opinion, and it has no relation to real costs...
    :)
    BT
     
  21. TheOnlyest

    TheOnlyest Formula 3

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    #21 TheOnlyest, Mar 11, 2008
    lol.. umm yea... maybe WITHOUT a core, and INCLUDING the labor to remove the bad tranny and install the rebuilt one!!

    As far as i'm concerned, the ''exchange'' should cost what an average shop would charge for labor... based on the average ACTUAL time it takes to R&R the inerds, plus parts (at maybe only a 5% markup) & freight!

    At the same time, this entire proposition is tricky... To me, an "exchange" program is cut and dry, you send me a fresh rebuilt tranny, I send you my old/damaged tranny... there is no R&R labor involved.
    The tricky part is, every core that comes back may not be as severely damaged as the next, therefore not requiring as many parts... therefore, in order to have a set-price for the exchange, it would have to be based on every single part in the gearbox being replaced, which after a small fortune in freight costs, R&R labor, and fluids etc....I suspect it would cost damn near what I paid for the entire car!

    But then again, I suppose if all that only came to $7k, I guess i'd be happy...
     
  22. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran

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    #22 SonomaRik, Mar 11, 2008

    Like your idea a lot, however, this question came up recently about the Mondia T version of the GB:
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=137534171&postcount=12

    somehow I don't think this is an issue, and shouldn't pose internal rebuild problems, yet.......
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #23 fatbillybob, Mar 11, 2008
    I think this is not an issue but I have not personally delt with mondial boxes. I have seen the internaly and they look like 348. The case is a 348 case I think. I think bruce (plugzit) has a mondial box in his car now. I am pretty sure they are interchangable.
     
  24. Saint Bastage

    Saint Bastage F1 Rookie

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    #24 Saint Bastage, Apr 25, 2008
    OK...Based on FBB reply I finally decided to ignore the Redline representative and replace that Aguip CRAP with Redline lightwieght shockproof. During the change I found no "chips" but a light coating of magnetic mud on the drain plug indicating some wear. I put in the new oil and took her for a spin. Shifter response was instantanious. 3rd was perfect, a very differant feel going into 2nd and a bit of light mechanical clunking into 1st. Mechanical clunking is corrected by engaging 2nd before 1st at a stop. As the tranny oil heated up there was a major change in the way it felt. Everything smoothed out even more. I'm still very sure the gearbox needs a good going through by an expert but I am now very confident that I can last the season without launching it.

    FBB...you want to do a 348 SS box next winter?

    FYI...FoNE would only do the box for 6K if associated with an engine out. They estimate 9K+ now. Still a fair deal?

    Lane
     
  25. troy_wood

    troy_wood Formula 3

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    #25 troy_wood, Apr 25, 2008

    "To me, its the last frontier of reasonable 348 ownership that has not been conquered..."

    I feel funny even chiming in here as my 348 is still a few days from being delivered but.... the gb was my biggest fear in buying my car. The above quote hits it bang on for me. I fully expect to lose my gb at some point in time (I've accepted this prior to purchasing) and I agree that 5k seems very reasonable to me. I love the idea fbb!
     
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