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360 rods in a 308

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by duck.co.za, Mar 13, 2008.

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  1. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #1 duck.co.za, Mar 13, 2008
    I have found a set 360 rods , dimensionally they are the same as a 308 rod except for the small end/pin diameter is bigger . Seeing I'm having custom pistons made could I have them made to except the big pin ?Assuming there is enough compresion height for the ring pack with the bigger pin .
     
  2. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #2 mk e, Mar 13, 2008
    yup. Just tell the piston maker what size pin you want.

    edit....you may need to rebalance the crank, but that's easy for any good speed shop
     
  3. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

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    #3 chrismorse, Mar 13, 2008
    Are the 360 rods lighter or stronger or both?

    ? chris
     
  4. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #4 duck.co.za, Mar 13, 2008
    They are titanium so I'm assuming they are lighter ,haven't got them in my hands yet so don't know for sure .
     
  5. luke9583

    luke9583 Formula 3

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    #5 luke9583, Mar 13, 2008
    Would you mind posting pictures? :)
     
  6. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #6 finnerty, Mar 13, 2008
    All right now, Mr. Dave... What exactly are you up to over there (or, should I say, "down under there")?

    "Will a 360 crank fit in a 308 block?"
    "Will 360 con-rods fit in a 308 block?"

    hehehehe...I sense a theme... Are you trying to put 360 internals into a 308 block, I assume? It also looks like you're making a set of custom pistons, as well...

    This sounds like a very intriguing project indeed. What cylinder heads are you planning to use? Will you share more of your intentions with us, please????

    Inquiring minds want to know!!!

    I'm interested to see how this works out as it sounds like a very good idea to utilize the 308 engine / transaxle configuration, but stuff it with the best Ferrari components you can get to fit in there.

    Add on a programmable EFI / ignition unit and a good exhaust system, and you might get the best performance possible out of the stock 308 engine packaging...without the money pit of doing an engine / driveline conversion.
     
  7. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #7 finnerty, Mar 13, 2008
    BTW, a while back I spent about 6 months crunching details and costs associated with putting an F-40 motor (mated with a Porsche G50 trans.) into a 308.

    Not including the cost of the F-40 engine (minus the electronics, ignition, and FI), which I already had in hand, I aborted at the $30K mark. And, that was probably only 80% of the way there!!
     
  8. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    #8 Artvonne, Mar 13, 2008
    Maybe Dave is going to fit some of Marks 400 liners, and with the 360 crank and rods, make something weird. Do a bit of plastic surgery on the block and you could put QV heads on it too.
     
  9. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #9 smg2, Mar 14, 2008
    I'm crunching the numbers right now on a 360 crank and rods with custom pistons and it already eclipses the $10k mark; and I even haven't gotten to the heads or EFI yet! not to mention a different bore size. looks like a 4.0L with 360 internals will run around $20k on the low side and $30k on the high with EFI and better heads. past that you can put the entire top half of the 348 on there, but the cost gets way to high. the kicker is the rods, new 360 rods are $500 a pop! so custom is the better route or hope for a parted engine.
     
  10. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #10 mk e, Mar 14, 2008
    Used parts are the only way projects like that would even make anything even resembling sense I think.
     
  11. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    #11 finnerty, Mar 14, 2008
    You know, the 308 body style is my favourite of all the Pininfarina Ferrari designs. I fell in love with it at the age of 14, and I'm just as excited to look at it now, as I was back then.

    And, I'm a big fan of modding these 308's to make up for their shortfall --- uhhh...performance. But, making truly profound changes (like the ones we are all discussing --- and actually doing, in some cases :) ), must ultimately be regarded as labours of love and doing it purely for the thrill / challenge / hobby of doing it. Because let's face it, these radical projects can really turn into money pits, fast --- and often make little or no financial sense.

    At some point, I always keep "why not just move up to a 355, and get the entire package upgrade ready to go?!" in my trade space.

    But, I hope folks will still keep tweaking away on the 308... it's great to see that level of enthusiasm and determination.

    Whoa! Wait just a minute...I've got the idea for my next project! How can I get the body of a 308 to fit onto the chassis of a 355.............??.:) :)

    Gotta go ---- I've got some specs to go dig up.....LOL
     
  12. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #12 duck.co.za, Mar 15, 2008
    yes I'm contemplating a few options ,I'm on leave at the moment in the darkest of Africa touching elephants and veiwing lions .So internet access is minimal and difficult .I will be back soon and post my intensions in more detail .I have bought a complete 360 motor and some internal bits from another .Because I live in the darkest Africa its going to take a while for everything to arrive ,but ounce it has arrived we can play .
     
  13. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #13 duck.co.za, Mar 16, 2008
    My first and formost project is to get my "standard " 308 drysump motor rebuild .I bought my car with a damaged motor it had thrown a rod ,couldn't get the heads off ,block was corroded ect . So far I have purchased a gt4 engine and gearbox where the block was incorrect (did not have the cast boss on it for the dry sump scavenge exit ?) managed to sell that to someone in SA .Then with help of a fellow Fchatter I found a drysump block in Canada .Now I have bought a complete 360 motor including inlet plenum and a burnt short block including heads . My first plan is to rebuild the 2v motor . I need a complete set of rods so am hoping I can salvage them from the burnt motor .Then have custom pistons manufactured and hopefully Paul (Artvonne) will show us how to get a 100cfm out of the inlet ports . So the original motor will be rebuild with a few mods here and there .
    Now the 360 I will try the crank in my spare block ,but as Scott (smg2) has said this is going to be a costly convertion and what heads do you use ? The plan is to try and fit the complete 360 motor onto a 308 transaxle .I can use the burnt block to hack with without risking the good motor and if for some unforseen reason it does not work I can always re sell the good motor .I expect I should have just bought the burnt motor to see if its possible but the good motor came up at about half the cost of any other "short block " I've seen . PLEASE NOTE this is not a project like Mark's (mke) he gives us daily updates ,I am going to complete my standard motor first . The 360 is going to require custom headers , individual throttle bodies (standard inlet plenum is far to tall ) and an aftermarket computer (Motec M800 I hope ) as well getting the motor to fit ? This is a huge project that is going to take time . The main consern at the moment is that the oil pump stick's out below the surface of the block .A sandwich plate is required as the 360 block looks like it is split at the crank center and the 308 block is below the crank center line , so hopefully there is enough room .Worste case is I have an expensive coffee table for my office (the burnt motor ) Only time will tell .
     
  14. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #14 duck.co.za, Mar 16, 2008
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  15. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #15 duck.co.za, Mar 16, 2008
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  16. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #16 duck.co.za, Mar 16, 2008
    Something else I noticed from the first pic is the oil spray on the underside of the piston ,good for turbo conversion .
     
  17. mk e

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    #17 mk e, Mar 17, 2008
    That is a beautiful thing
     
  18. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #18 mk e, Mar 17, 2008
    If that'as the case you should be good. A 308 engine is 3.48" (oft he top of my head) from the bottom flange to the crank centerline, that's a lot of room.

    I want to add a dry sump system to my engine....now you've got me wondering if I could put a 360 oil pump inside the 400 engine so everything looks stock when I'm done.........
     
  19. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #19 duck.co.za, Mar 17, 2008
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    Mark I should have a spare one so we can talk .Possibly I should ship the motor to you first otherwise it's to SA and then back to you.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  20. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

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    #20 mk e, Mar 17, 2008
    All the wondering if they'll fit and the booth.....


    I'll tell you what. Just to help you out I'll trade you a set of good 308 rods (400 actuall but they are the same) that do fit for those pesky troublesome 360 ones and I'll through in 8 good used pistons too....just to help you out ;)
     
  21. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #21 smg2, Mar 17, 2008
    here's what I have;
    308/328
    CC = 136.913mm~137mm
    pin bore = 21.5mm~21.521mm
    crank = 47.129mm~47.142mm

    348
    CC = 136.913mm~137mm
    pin bore = 21.5mm~21.521mm
    crank = 47.129mm~47.142mm

    355
    CC = 136.975mm~137.025mm
    pin bore = 22.990mm~23.010mm
    crank = 47.129mm~47.142mm

    width are all the same at 20.85~20.9mm
    weight for steel 520gr~600gr
    weight for Ti 380gr~408gr
     
  22. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #22 duck.co.za, Mar 17, 2008
    Scott a request could you measure the O/D of the small end .I need to check the small end clearance under the piston crown . That's of the 355 rod , I assume its the same as a 360 rod? The weight saving is substancial ,I assume the small end bores are without the bushes ?What size gudgeon pin does the 355 use ?
     
  23. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #23 smg2, Mar 17, 2008
    those dims are the bore OD. the pins are thus;
    308/328/348
    OD = 21.535mm~21.548mm
    ID = 18.515mm~18.535mm

    355
    OD = 23.050mm~23.09mm
    ID = 20.015mm~20.025mm

    here's something else though, the big end has the same OD and ID on the crank but the bearing changes with the Ti rod, to a thickness of 1.712~1.721mm vs 1.714~1.723mm on the 308~348.
     
  24. duck.co.za

    duck.co.za Formula 3

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    #24 duck.co.za, Mar 17, 2008
    Thank's Scott , I'm not quite following you on the big end bearings ?So you would need to use the 360 bearings on a 308 journal using the 360 rod ?Or you would have to have the crank pollished a few thou ?
     
  25. smg2

    smg2 F1 World Champ
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    #25 smg2, Mar 17, 2008
    no no, the machined ends are the same. i'm assuming from the growth rate at temps the Ti is more, so the use of thinner bearings is needed. the journals are identical.
     
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