No, I am not. As I have stated, the kid can race if given the proper conditions. He isn't and never will be WDC material. You show me one YouTube clip of when he was on his game and I'm sure there are people here that could post 100 more of when he was not. ALL of that aside, the fact is that he blew Ferrari's chance at a WCC in 2007 and ALL the money (100 MILLION of it $100,000,000.00) that came with it. It was a GIFT that Stepney came along and changed all that. There's no gift coming this year. Ham and Kova are going to eat the Scuderia's lunch, and they won't leave a tip.
Those pics clearly show it was DC's corner. The rules of racing: It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to do so safely. The leading car has the priority in choice of line. That is DC's corner and Massa should have either backed off or even driven off circuit to avoid him if necessary. He is not ahead or even level, thus he should not be there at all. Massa's fault 100% FTR I hate Coulthard but that doesn't change the facts in this case.
+100 Although I fear you are wasting your breath/bandwidth ,on the Massa fans that have appeared of late.. It's called Flogging a dead horse ..
I think the problem is more likely just not understanding the rules. Until Massa is level, it's DC's corner. That's the rule, period. Not having your nose inside, not almost level. If you don't get fully level with the car you are overtaking, you must concede the corner. And if you are trying the even more difficult outside overtaking maneuver, you must be ahead of the car inside. And see the symmetry? DC, on the outside, is always ahead of Massa. No grey area here at all. As another example, go back and review the collision between Hill and Schumacher in Australia 1994.
Excellent post and spot on. Unfortunately it is wasted on a group of sycophants who won't let the truth stand in the way of their preconceived notions.
Well you are saying he was off the racing line - but previously some guys supporting Massa said he was ON the racing line... OK at least we're clear now that Massa was NOT on the racing line, and from the pics we know he was NOT in front of DC. At least that provides some context for the discussion. So, basically, those that support Massa acknowledge that he was off line and was behind, but still feel DC should have moved over (DC being the car in front, the one holding the position that Massa is trying to take). So, maybe any car that Massa puts his wheels next to during the race ought to just move over? Maybe there should be a rule that if a Ferrari comes in proximity to you, then you must pull over to let it by? Riiiiiight.... As for your theory on why people dislike Massa, it's absurd. I hate Alonso and I hope he never drives for Ferrari. I think Massa sucks too... so there goes that idea! You've stated before that you hate Kimi, I believe it was you that said he will never win a race at Ferrari all last year, that he is a drunkard and a "cancer on the team". That was before he blew away all comers to win the WDC! So since you support Ferrari as a team but obviously hate Kimi, it's clear where you're reasoning comes from - and it's certainly NOT based on an unbiased review of Massas skills!
Yes, obviously As Pete said, Massa was IMO not "along enough to establish the pass". DC got to the corner first, and he was not outdriven by Massa. Massa did a kamikaze move down the inside, took a horrible line and had really no chance of making the pass unless DC just moved over and didn't put up a fight. I'd never expect DC not to put up a fight, especially on such a sloppy pass attempt. Massa did not outbrake him - he just hit the brakes a split second later (which is why he was at DC's midpoint). That's not outbraking. If there is one skill I have in my very limited repertoire of driving skill, it is braking. I was always good at it and just about every pass I've ever made on anyone was outbraking them into a turn. If I had performed that maneuver I would know 100% that I was relying on nothing more than the charity of the other driver to hand me the position without a fight. I think the other driver (whoever it may be) ought to be able to count on the guy trying to make the pass not to force a "give me the spot or crash" situation - and that's why DC is rightfully POed at Massa. Wrong. Massa went offline on the inside of DC, braked later, was off line and not set up to take the corner, was unable to get in front of of DC enough to establish his position, and found himself with nowhere to go in the wrong place of the track to make the turn. He was at the mercy of DC to gift him the position at that point, which DC did not do (rightfully so since Massa had not made the pass on him), therefore Massa crashes into the side of DC while DC takes his correct and established line though the turn.
Correct. It was sloppy on both sides. DC was a hardass but he's known for being a hardass. I know all about outbraking someone and forcing the issue - if you are as far off line as Massa was and that far back, you haven't really forced the issue and are relying on the charity of the other guy to give you the pass. DC ain't that charitable when it comes to giving up spots.
This is what get's me Mike. If it had been Lewis running into DC ....well it would be the biggest feeding frenzy of all time he would be in the wrong.. hung out to dry big time ,according to all Massa fans, No question. I dont dislike Massa, but what I cant stand is blinkered post's that can't see there hero's doing no wrong..every one makes mistakes.. its only a question of when the powers that be say ,ok enough is enough..
That's not the point. He may not be WDC material, along with 19 other drivers in the series, (the only ones are Kimi, Alonso and certainly Hamilton if he matures enough), but Massa is competent enough to regularly qualify high and to support his team mate as he did in 2007 to allow Kimi to win the championship. No team can affford to have two legitimate championship contenders at the same time. It is inherently self destructive. The real gift to Ferrari was not Stepney, but Hamilton's inability to really perform under pressure, resulting in a couple of major errors that lost him and McLaren the title. The $100,000,000 BTW did not go to Ferrari. It is an FIA fine that will be spent on developing racers. It's peanuts in the context of team budgets anyway. The fact that Mclaren could easily afford the net $50,000,000 or so, after offsetting prize money, without losing a step (and continuing to use Ferrari technology) shows how meaningless the number is in this context of billion dollar F1 team budgets.
Kimi was gifted the WDC by Mclarens mistakes at the end and Ferraris unprovable thus unenforceable team rules violation.
The role of the second driver is to support the #1 driver and to help deliver the WDC. Massa failed on both counts. As we all know, Ferrari failed to win either the WDC or the WCC in Massa's first year. As you point out, Kimi did not win the 2007 WDC so much as McLAren allowed it to slip from their grasp. Furthermore Ferrari won the WCC on the basis of regulatory decisions, not on the track. On a straightforward points earned basis, Ferrari was beaten by McLaren where it counts. Ridiculous. There are many examples of teams fielding two top level drivers and succeeding. Ferrari itself stated at the beginning of 2007 that both drivers were going to be allowed to race for the championship, there is no designated #1 or #2 in the team. A lot of folks here are new to F1 and they think that the manner in which Schumacher and Ferrari won their titles is the only way to succeed in F1 simply because this is all they know and all they've seen. This is demonstrably false, it is one way of winning but there are many other approaches that are successful as well. The fact that Ferrari has changed its policies towards #1 and #2 drivers in the post-Schumacher era is proof enough. There is so much competition for stupidest post of the year that I am having a hard time keeping up. This is certainly a contender.
Ok, so using phylogic (tm) Massa outbraked DC, yet DC was in front at the turn. Must be that new math - being behind but really being in front. I'm sure you have much more racing credentials than the people who don't agree with your viewpoint though! errr, or something.
Even if he has racing credentials, he doesn't need them to counter your argument. There is no "being directly alongside" or whatever you think it is rule in F1.
Nonsense like when guys like you can't understand that being behind someone means you weren't in front? How hard is that to understand? If I am behind, I am not in front - is this a difficult concept to understand? Massa didn't outbrake DC - he got up to DC's halfway point. You don't want to accept that or something - despite blindingly obvious video evidence to the contrary. Just say "Hey I like Massa, so I don't want to say he did wrong", or say "I think he was far enough up to call it his corner" - because the pics and video does not in any way support the ridiculous point a few of you are trying to get across. Come on - come back with "if you knew anything about racing...." or tell us a few more talking heads who are on your side (making your view correct). LOL
You know "all about" it, oh really? Do tell...... Nice to know we have an authority on outbraking here at FChat.
Speaking of what we think vs reality, you might want to take a shot at reading my posts. I have never said that one needs to be alongside (equal) to have won the position. Massa was not ever past DC's halfway point. If he had a strong position going into the turn on a clean line and had control of his car, then he could have reasonably forced the issue that the position was his. He didn't have any of those. He dove down the inside, had no hope in hell of making the turn, had no position, and had no grounds to challenge DC for the turn. So when DC followed through IN FRONT, ON LINE making his turn, there was Massa like an idiot sitting out of skew at the apex. DUH!
