www.ferrariofdenver.com FAQ's

link

 

http://www.ferrariofdenver.com/faq.cfm

 

Terrific. Pretty unvarnished, except for the anti-independent bias.

 

That is a good read. Insightful and to the point. For those of us in the keep it under $100k crowd, I think it says, buy a 308. Is there a better buy in the classic sports car market today? I am not aware of one. I think the 355 market is getting close. In 20 years however, I think a 308 will outshine the 355, as it defines the word classic, whereas a 355 wasn't a trendsetter, though agreeably a superior car.

 

Not to be off topic, but Rico, where in South Dakota are you?

FoD Faq's is classic...though I disagree about us independent dealerships..the fact is that since some of us are true entusiast we can offer a unbias look at the market as well as provide more information as to the service of your car.....

 

I am in Rapid City, sent you a PM. One of us has to move, as State Law only allows one Ferrari.

 

I concur; I think there's always less (if any) of an agenda w.independents than w.dealerships - of any marque.

 

Dont get me wrong our goal is to sell cars...but we are genrally more knowageable across the board of models, how to service each one including the older cars..we have to be more seltive on our cars, thus, service recalls, and other issues, like pricing and past customer experinces...is very imporant...Independents like myself, have to be up-to-date on everything we can, we do not have the funds to to it any other way...

 

FoD has an anti-independent bias? They are not so much biased as they are defensive posturing. The truth is that they are terrified of Scuderia Rampante (and Dave Helms). And they should be ----- because when it comes to having our Ferraris serviced, the vast majority of us here in Colorado will take our cars into Dave before we would let FoD change our oil...

The franchised dealerships have the monopoly on new car sales and factory-only, warranty work. Beyond that, it's a free market ---screw them if they can't match the quality and service of the good independents that are out there.

FoD is a good Ferrari dealership --- but they are far from being one of the great ones. And, they don't command the loyalty and respect of dealerships such as Ferrari of Silicon Valley and Ron Tonkin Gran Turismo (I'm sure there are others, but these are the 2 I have first hand knowledge of).

Half of the time, even when I need a "dealer-only" part, I order it through RTGT, and have it drop shipped. They're not cheaper than FoD, but their connection to FNA is far stronger --- and they can always get the parts much sooner.

I do, however, like to go down to FoD occasionally and smell the new Bentleys. And, the staff down there are courteous, enthusiastic, and helpful. They do the best with what they have.

But, as for their overall knowledge of Ferraris and opinion on which one to buy, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Most of their service staff has never even put a wrench on a Ferrari built before 1995... And, while they do have some young talent --- they are pretty thin on the "sage factor".

 

Oh how I love whenever this topic rears it's head...

 

Let me head this off before it possibly gets out of hand...

I wasn't trying to fire up an "FoD -- good or bad?" debate. But, the fact is that they have had a good deal of turnover / regime change / reputation challenges and growing pains over the last 5-10 years. I do believe they are finally on the right track and have the ability to evolve into a premier dealer / service facility for Ferraris someday ---- but, I think even their own management would realistically concede that they are not there yet...

 

Looks like someone bought FoD Service a horn to toot! I guess you cannot blame them for trying to tout their Service Department as that is where they make a significant amount of money, and I am sure that they are very qualified overall. As an F-Car owner and potential customer, however, I would rather not see them attempting to 'dis' independent service providers, or trying to scare customers that the dealership is the ONLY place qualified to work on the precious Ferrari marque. C'mon.

I have previously brought my BMW M's and now F-Cars to VERY QUALIFIED independents for years....and have been and am very, VERY satisfied. Try working up a close, personal relationship with the Service Department at a large dealer. Sure, that will happen, that is if they can hear you through the glass separating the waiting area from the service bay!

In my experience, many if not all independents who are at the top of their craft have worked for a dealership/FNA previously, owned F-Cars, raced F-Cars, and live/breath F-Cars...and now that they are running their own business...they have customer satisfaction and quality as job#1 in partnership with their customers/friends.

PS: Read the reviews/comments repeated over and over about Eugenio, Tim Stanford, Dave Helms and others -- the list goes on.... rave reviews and a real partnership demonstrated with their clients. I rarely see those type of unprovoked commentary about dealerships. No wonder dealerships have to advertise heavily, and go horn-tooting from time to time.

Nothing against a dealership, they do fine work, but if I have a qualified independent in my area...that is where I will head first. Read my "location address", and you'll know exactly where you'll find my car!

J.

 

Don't worry, there has been little reason to get upset about what has been said in this thread. Everyone is titled to their own opinions and where they take their car is up to them as well. The FAQs section is offered up to help someone who is more than likely new to the exotic car world and of course we're going to toot our own horn...you mean you wouldn't do the same?
No one is throwing stones at anyone else but like I've said before, our head Ferrari Technician is rated #1 in the USA by Ferrari and #4 in the World...quite an accomplishment no matter which side of the fence you're on.

 

Well, seems like this is going to turn into a Denver/Colorado only discussion. However, the "location address" is an issue for me.

Dave is AWESOME, and I would certainly use him for anything major. He spent nearly 2 hours on the phone with me (free/no charge of course) when I was looking for my first FCar. I owe him my loyality for being such a great guy. I am, however, closer to FoD and would not hesitate to take my car to them in an emergency or for something small that I could not get it up to Dave for, if only because I know Derek would do his best to make it right.

Truth is, nothing so far has needed to be done urgently on my car, so I haven't taken it to either. I guess I'll see when/if something needs to be fixed where I take it.

Now, back on TOPIC, while the 308 wasnt their "first choice", it was mine and my QV is great for me.

James in Denver

 

...just so you're aware, I am not the FAQ's author

 

Most of their service department has worked on my car (1989).

 

I plead "Guilty" of using hyperbole to illustrate a point...

 

I don't think that's really the point, Derek. The statements made by whomever of FoD in the FAQ section regarding independent shops are poor form (or at the least, worded poorly). It's just a subject that really shouldn't be mentioned by either the Dealers or the Independents. It's negative campaigning.

Come to think of it, in the last 25 years of taking my various cars to various independents for various marques in various states --- I don't think I've ever heard one of them malign the local dealership(s), or say "be careful if you take your car there".

The community of Ferrari owners is not exactly the same as the community of Chevy owners, and clearly many of us recoil a bit when we perceive that we are being "sold to" by the shops, the dealerships, or even by Ferrari themselves. We are often, as a group, more high maintenance and opinionated about our cars.

I, for one, can be a huge PITA to my service tech!!!! What can I say, if you want to be in the Ferrari customer service world, you're going to have to tolerate that sometimes.

If someone walks onto the lot, and says, "I've got $200,000 bucks in my pocket, and I have no ideas about what any of these snazzy cars you've got are all about ---- tell me which one I should buy...". Well, then you've got a customer whom you could sell anything to, and he would be happy --- because he has more money than sense, and doesn't care about the differences among cars or whom services them later.

But, trust me, if you try to tell the typical prospective Ferrari buyer, owner or enthusiast "what he should think or buy", you're going to alienate someone --- not a wise move if you're running a business...

Feel free to pass along my un-informed, blow-hard, know-it-all, opinion on the subject to the person who did write the FAQ comments --- they may find it food for thought.

And, for the record, the folks at FoD will earn me (back) as a customer when they show me they are the best --- not because they tell me that they are.

Although, after my rant here, I wouldn't blame you guys at all if you never wanted to see my mug in your shop again!!

Sincerely though, I mean what I said before --- I think you folks are going in a good direction with the changes you've made, and I really do wish you all great success at FoD!

Until then...you'll find my cars parked at the shop right next to John's car!!!!

 

+100

 

I concur.

FWIW, I visited FoD while car shopping, and have heard good things about their service department.

 

The main point you seem to be missing is that the FAQ is not gunning for the quality of independents. Derek himself would surely admit that Dave Helms does good work in the Denver area, and would likely admit that Dave would be a reasonable place to take a Ferrari for repairs. Undoubtedly, if the person who wrote the FAQ was reasonable, he too would admit to such a thing. What you need to understand is that the FAQ is written by a business intending to support its business - how you could blame them for doing this is beyond me, even if their mechanics are of half the quality that local independent shops are.

 

In my 12 years of Ferrari ownership, I've used independents mostly. I bought my 1st Ferrari, a 308, from FOD in 1996, but didn't really find the service on it acceptable so moved on. In Fod's defense, they were going through quite a bit of staff change at the time. (pre Dave Helms). My favorite independent closed a few years ago and I have had my 328 at FOD and Helm's in recent years. Both were fine. I'm not sure which I'll try to use for an upcoming major. Bill is a relatively quiet guy compared to DAve. Both are very highly regarded techs in these parts. I don't see anything wrong with the FAQ section. They are mostly touting the fact that they have factory support. I might add that when I have visited FOD, there seems to always be a classic or two in there so the comment about never working on older cars is unfounded.

Dave

 

Really???

Here is an excerpt from the FoD FAQ section about service:



"No independent or franchised technician anywhere can claim to be more accomplished.
Fact: No independent repair shop of any brand has access to factory support. Period. not Porsche, not Mercedes, not BMW, & certainly not Ferrari. Factories invest heavily in the training and competence within their franchised dealerships .... NO independent, no where, no how. Plus, no independent technician or mechanic has factory training beyond the day he quit at the franchised dealership. So you be sure to believe it when they try to convince you otherwise. OJT (on the job training) and experiments are the independent's norm.... Throw parts at the problem till it's cured. And guess where they have to go for the parts? The franchised dealership, somewhere."



I don't know about you, but when I read this, I get the impression that they (FoD) are emphasizing more than the fact that independents aren't actively supported by the factory. The overall tone of this passage, especially the last few sentences, sure seems a tad derisive to me...

 

A TAD?!?

I tried to count to ten before hitting the "submit reply" button, but obviously, I failed!

I have the highest respect for Bill Orth, because he's the only FOD contact I've had in the last twenty years and he's been in the game a long time, which counts for a lot in this business, but I have MAJOR issues with this particular printed statement on a long-time FNA dealer website.

It is a fallacy to say that independents aren't actively supported by the factory by having access to current publications, service bulletins and technical information. While FNA states that the SD2 and SD3 are proprietary "dealer only" tools, there are quite a few (and the equivalents like the ST05) floating around and ensconced in many respected independent F-car shops, along with mechanics who have not stopped getting support, legitimate or otherwise, from those with current information long after their last day working for a franchised dealer!

PCNA and FNA both offer subscription plans for accessing the latest factory information to anyone who will pay for the plan. Ferrari's plan is here: http://www.ferraritechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=subscriptions

It is also a fallacy to suggest that people like Tim Stanford, Bill Pollard, Brian Crall and Dave Helms (heck, even my buddy Tom Jones is an "independent" now after a quarter century as a top wrench at an FNA dealer) are in any way less capable, ethical or defective in their problem solving approach than a current dealer mechanic who may have scored well in a synthetic FNA test but that I and many others have never even heard of!

It is a terrible shame that a franchised dealer would not only allow, but actively perpetuate the myth that by association, independents are all a bunch of slap-happy, "throw parts at the problem till(sic) it's cured" hacks that return time and time again to the dealer groveling for more merchandise to "experiment" with. Nobody I know who is worth a darn would do such a thing. That procedure is usually reserved for the dealership mechanics who have ready access to parts to "play" with! <very big grin>

This is just another example of the "us versus them" mentality that has become increasingly prevalent as the dealers have been forced by diminishing margins on new cars by going after the more lucrative (for them) service business using questionable tactics and a broad brush to paint alternatives as a "bad choice" you as the conscientious F-car owner should avoid making. It makes me sick...

I'm awfully glad I am out of the F-car servicing business. I enjoyed my twenty-eight years of building and sustaining a nearly unblemished reputation as a friendly, knowledgeable independent service source for local and regional F-car owners. I did this when the local dealer was owned by a lion of a guy in F-car circles, Steve Barney, who smiled on me and my efforts to learn and do better, even though I was not employed by him. We looked to collaborate, not chop each other down. In a small area, in a closely connected crowd, we both thrived. I treasure those times and never take for granted that there WERE AND ARE honorable franchised dealers as well as knowledgeable, well-informed and properly experienced independents that don't need to rely on "OJT (on the job training) and experiments."

I stand by my original observation. The FAQ on the FoD site is relevent, entertaining and useful, with the exception of the anti-independent bias. You can build up your own without tearing down others. Surely FoD can aspire to that...