Your original post: I don't see any qualification in your statement, you clearly state that every team has a #1. Yet, when challenged, this is the best excuse you can come up with?!? I don't see anything in the first post referencing front-running teams only. If you have followed F1 for as long as you claim, then surely you can come up with even a couple of the many, many examples that prove you wrong. And if you bothered to follow F1 last year you would have known that BMW finished 3rd in the title chase. If you bothered watching the Australia race, you ought to have enough experience to have seen the performance differential between Heidfeld's and Kubicka's BMWs and Alonso's Renault. Your statement is ridiculous and it falls apart under the simplest and most superficial of scrutinies. Backtracking and post-statement qualifying don't hold up around here.
When BMW, with its two okay drivers actually wins a Grand Prix you may have something to talk about. 3rd place is as good as last place. This is about winners and in the two leading teams - the ONLY teams in contention to WIN either the WCC or WDC, there is very clearly one lead driver. So please spare us your your pithy remarks. They really are meaningless (and ridiculous to use one of your favorite words) in the context of real winners.
The only reason it was an aggressive move by Massa is he had no choice. IF you have watched F1 for any length of time, you would realize David Coulthard will not let you pass even though he is slower. He still thinks he's a front runner. He continually shuts the door on any and everyone. We've seen it countless times, DC holding up someone lap after lap after lap. If you don't think Massa is oblivious to this you are wrong. He realizes the ONLY way to get around DC is to make an agressive move or wait 15 laps for him to make a mistake. So if Massa had been patient and waited, you'd all be complaining about that. DC is reaping what he sowed. I'm glad his car disintegrated; he deserved it in my opinion just wish Massa had not suffered from it. D
+3 A completely uninformed statement to place the Renault as a better car than the BMW. Alonso was running behind the STR Ferrari with 3 laps to go. That may be the highest finish the Renault sees all season.
Had no choice!! Bloody hell..... I'am coming ready or not yeh great... best put a ram on his car then. Driving a Ferrari gives you right of way and racers just wave you through right!!, must remember that next time Iam out on the track
Again, you keep coming back with ridiculous BS... I thought you were done with this thread? I am not the one that defended anything. You were the guy fishing for an opportunity at self aggrandizement... as soon as I said I had been on track and I knew what outbraking meant, you came up with "oh really, do tell", followed up by your famously lame comment about how you've beat F1 drivers on track. Then, no doubt due to pressure from the adoring masses to tell us all about your vast achievements "reluctantly" posted about it. You're only flaw is your modesty! LOL I was dying after reading about how you've "beaten F1 drivers on track" then come to find out it was JV (and not the "good" JV either!)... JV who never actually drove an F1 race, and you came 2nd to him. I guess in TeakThink that translates into "I'm so frickin good I beat F1 drivers! You will respect my authoritah!!!! Meanwhile in reading comprehension 101, the rest of the members realized that nobody (least of all myself) was saying that one must be in front to have it considered a pass. Massa wasn't in front, and it would be optimistic to consider his front wheels level with DC. DC had no responsibility to change his line and run wide to let Massa down the inside - Massa who was offline and made a kamikaze move down the inside, carrying too much speed, hammering the brakes and relying on the charity of DC to move out of the way and gift him the position. If you understood that, you wouldn't be relegated to impressing people about how you've beaten F1 drivers on track (LOL!) rather you'd be out there doing it! As I said, maybe you can give DC some racing instruction, given how you're clearly more learned than that washed up old has been!
+1 When I raced Skip and when I was racing Panoz spec cars, you had to make the pass on someone, but you had to be sure you could do it cleanly. As I have said a million times (but those suffering from TeakThink don't get) is that it was definitely a racing incident, meaning nobody deserves a DQ or a penalty over it. But it was an incident precipitated by Massa and the responsbility lies there.
Yep, DC is a hardass about being passed, no doubt about it. But Massa was in a much faster car and IMO could have executed a pass much more cleanly without forcing DC into a "relent or crash" position, knownig fullwell what DC would do. Would Kimi have been able to make the pass (and keep it on track LOL!)? Or Schumi? Or Hamilton? I tend to think so - which leaves Massa without much ability to put the blame all on DC.... also, Massa has a lot more to lose (basically what DC said himself) and while I'd expect that sort of move from Sato or Davidson when trying to desperately pass, I don't expect it from Massa. It was extremely funny that DC's car disintegrated and Massas was unscathed. It looked like the RBR was made from lollypop sticks and the Ferrari was made of steel. It was hilarious how utterly demolished DC's car was
I miss the ancient philosophy of sport that believes things can happen as the result of competition and, while one participant may have been a little foolhardy in his actions, sometimes the outcome isn't as hoped. This is the big leagues; they don't hand everyone a ribbon for participating before the kids dash off to their mom's minivans. It's natural to debate issues like this, but I get sick of hearing that everyone should be penalized for everything. Let it become a habit before dragging anyone out onto the carpet.
WHERE in your original post does it say you are referring to just the two top teams?!? You can backtrack all you want and attempt to steer the conversation away from your oroginal point but you emphatically stated that ALL teams have a #1 driver...ALL TEAMS. Now that your statement has been proven to be false, you wish to change the discussion? You made a broad and sweeping statement that was completely and provably false. You could offer a retraction but instead you wish to change the subject. Kyalami, my arse. You are probably 17 years old.
+1 That is the best description of the incident thus far. DC had no obligation to run wide, he was ahead of Massa, the corner was his and he was racing for position. That the stewards left it as a racing incident doesn't mean that Massa is blameless. He had a faster car and plenty of opportunity to overtake DC in a better spot, that he chose that spot on the track and that opportunity to pass is indicative of his inability to overtake. Massa has shown throughout his entire career that he has very poor judgement on the track. I can't imagine Schumacher, Senna or even Hamilton making such a foolish lapse in judgement as Massa. What people conveniently forget is that this is not an isolated incident in Massa's history, this happens to him a disproportionate amount of time, particularly for someone who has "studied at the foot of Schumacher" and "been showing consistent improvement year after year" as some of the more-sycophantic contributors here have attested. According to some, Massa is in the league of Kimi, Alonso and Hamilton, yet I saw him make errors on the track that I would have expected from a Piquet Jr. or a Nakajima. In fact, the rookies in this race drove cleaner races than the supposed WDC-in-waiting and Savior-of-Ferrari Massa. You can make an excuse for this incident or that incident, but after a while the frequency of incidents becomes so great that you have to call into question this guy's fundamental abilities behind the wheel. Kimi has an occasional off (as he did in Australia) but he also wins races without needing to be on pole and a clear track in front of him and wins championships. Massa has 5 race wins, EVERY one of them came when he was on pole. Kimi has 15 race wins, 10 of which he was NOT on pole. So tell me, which on of them knows how to overtake?
There..the dumbest post of the year ! Btw, must have been a horrible week end when Cevert was killed. That guy had so much charisma.
Are you suggesting we install spikes on the wheels of the cars like James Bond in Goldfinger? I think a few here (me included) are sort of reveling in Massa's mistake - it's a bit of a sport. I hope Massa does well, because I would like Ferrari to win the WDC and WCC this year. Yes we're overanalyzing one incident but we only have one race so far this year. It will be a good and interesting season, I am sure!
Yea, with as many sports car races as Alan has won, that's truly something to be embarrassed about. ;-) I have my doubts as to how well DC could "hang" at Le Mans or Sebring. My bet is that he would have certain parts of his anatomy handed back to him in a box.
Let's not forget that DC's track record as an unyielding back marker is a stipulative of common knowledge. This guy can be the slowest car on the track and still refuse to let faster cars by. What I do agree with, is Massa should knows this and needs to handle this package with care.
Panoz spec racing? Well I guess you are an authority now! The rules are a little different in grade school then grad school........chumpette! A million! Wow, it seems like a billion. But then you are a stickler for accuracy. And keep saying to yourself "It was a racing incident, but it was Massa's fault.It was a racing incident, but it was Massa's fault, Over and over and over..... Once again your powers of observation are almost........mystical. Massa knew "fullwell" that DC was going to run right into him? So you are saying Massa chose to get run into on purpose? What, did he need a potty break, or was he just tired and wanted to go home early? Hurry up Mikey, call Massa to let him know you expect more from him, I'm sure he would love to know he has a "gentle, but firm", surrogate grandpa in America. Yes, they would have "kept it on track LOL!" because their cars are not affected when run into, unlike lesser mortals. Once again, brilliant assumption. Yes sir, the world was rolling on the floor in hysterics with you. Yes the Scots are really embarrassed, perhaps you should send them a bouquet to assuage their dismay. And don't forget to Dis Jackie Stewart, you think he sucks too, right? In all seriousness I am just teasing you.............but then as our premier blowhard on Fchat you deserve every bit of it. Keep up the good work, it's nice to be good at something!
Mr Scott, I have only 1 question to you as a declared racer: Put In Massa's position would you do the same move on DC..?
Yes. As I think most F1 drivers would. DC left the door wide open....and shut it way too late. Did you guys note that Martin Brundle, on ITV said that he thought Massa "had the high ground" in this incident!! Maybe most people wouldn't make too much out of what Brundle would say here.............maybe except for the fact that HE IS Coulthard's MANAGER!! (OK, OK, I know before you even post SRTMike.....Brundle is a loser has-been that doesn't know what he is talking about! Ha ha......give me a break!!).
When Martin Brundle was criticizing the FIA for their treatment of McLaren, he was castigated on these boards. Now, all of a sudden, he is the voice of reason? Convenient.
If you knew how to use the search button you would see I'm the only one that has mentioned him on this thread, and I have never castigated him. In fact I think he was correct in criticizing the FIA. Therefore your "convenient" statement is irrelevant in the context of this thread, and just plain wrong in context to my position.
Did I mention you by name? References to his comments exist elsewhere on this board, you know,. If you used the search function, you would have seen that.
Couple of comment's from DC's ITV column DC: My perspective is quite clear: Im unlikely to be racing Ferrari this year, so I have no interest in weaving all over the track to keep a Ferrari behind me, because its got such a straight-line speed advantage that I wont be able to prevent it passing me. he isnt racing me for the championship. Hes racing his team-mate and the two McLarens, and to do that he needs to finish grands prix. Not taking sides as it's DC talking but he has a point.
Spot on. I don't care for DC and whether he crashes out or not. I also don't really care to how much of a degree this was DC's or Massa's fault. The bottom line remains the same: Massa should either not have attempted this pass or done it properly. If you end up in a situation like this where only sheer luck prevents your car from falling apart, then you're gambling way too much. PS: Kimi's attempted pass at Kovalainen on old tires was just as stupid.
