Whomever wins the WDC will do so with a lot of luck involved. The absolute dominanation days are over (for now).
You can be smug about Hamilton all you want, he already wrote F1 history like nobody else. Most successful rookie ever (not counting the first year of F1). Now about that Massa statistic you keep pounding on, let's hear it.
That makes two of us. I've looked him up and never found anything that shows he's anything more than a journeyman talentwise. Ron how about that wager?
I'm not a Massa hater or supporter. I simply support Ferrari and thus its drivers. Massa was 4th in the standings last year. Ok but like it or not Massa was instrumental in Kimi clinching the title. That alone to me makes Massa both a real team player and a good driver to have. Just for that he deserves his current seat. Will he ever win a WDC? Honestly I think it will be difficult but it be great if he did. For those who want a top three star performer (i.e. Alonso, Hamilton) to pair up with Kimi. That is not the best strategy from a team perspective. Ask Schumi... or more recently Ron Dennis. The best way to loose a WDC is to have teammates fighting eachother. Plenty of examples there. Regarding Massa's two silly mistakes so far this year... well they were in fact nasty brain fades but what about Kimi completly misjudging his braking distance on the inside line when trying to pass Kovalainen? Frankly such a move can be regarded as amateurish. Clearly not worthy of a WDC, especially after the outstanding drive he was displaying. In terms of raw speed Massa has shown he's capable of P1 and winning races. It's true that Massa sometimes lacks confidence in his abilties and/or can't handle the pressure but if he relaxed he'd be much more consistent and successful. This year I think Massa will improve his game. In short I'm perfectly happy with Ferrari's driver line up (not with Massa's last two performances though). In any case, Kimi will be champion again and hopefully Massa too.
Finally a post supporting Massa that makes sense! : ) I don't agree with every point but I agree overall. Well put, it remains to be seen if he can raise his game (I don't think he can or he would have already, but hey if he does it would be great for the team).
Ron started the statistics argument yesterday with a statement, that Massa was "better than most drivers". Well, I was about ready with my answer having looked up all his stats, which confirmed his results were better than the majority of F1 drivers, but being something like 45th in the eternal list isn't that hot either. Particularly when you have such hot drivers like Boutsen or Patrese ahead of you. Better than most would probably be seen as beating 95% of the rest, or at least 92%, but we're getting statistically sloppy here. But as soon as I was ready, Ron edited his post to the point, that it eliminated Massa's Sauber years. How convenient. But I'm still happy to see his fabulous results in the Ferrari. I got a couple online DBs and a ton of F1 and Ferrari history books on stand by. Bring it on Ron. You know what they say about statistics: I only believe the ones I made up myself.
I wonder if these are the statistics that Ron's talking about? 2007 Season - 1st KR -110pts 2nd LH -109pts 3rd FA -109pts 4th FM -94pts 2006 Season - 1st FA -134pts 2nd MS -121pts 3rd FM -80 2005 Season - Too many drivers ahead of FM to list... 13th FM -11pts 2004 Season - Once again, too many drivers ahead of FM to list... 12th FM -12pts I'm not bashing here, I'm just trying to figure out how someone could discern FM being a WDC contender by referring to his statistics?
There in lies the issue, i answered before he modified it, lol! If you eliminate his Sauber years he's still gotten beaten by both of his teammates in a direct comparison. His numbers are inflated because of the car he drives. Stick Button in that car and he wins. Same with several other current drivers. there is simply nothing special about Felipe.
In my head I see Ron going through results tables, calculating averages and looking at the results quietly swearing to himself. I have gone through this material at least about three times now and it ain't great. Not that his numbers are terribly bad either, but not good enough to make a statistically significant statement. Another problem is the limited sample size: Few racing drivers have made enough starts to be statistically significant (to be technically correct, none actually qualifies, but I assume Ron was giving the term "statistics" a bit of a leeway anyhow). This is particularly true when you eliminate the Sauber years. Just not much data. In any comparison you would have to take the quality of the car into account. Which eliminates a lot of the years Ron used in his comparison with Villeneuve.
c'mon guys, this is a Shumassa support thread. lets be kind. anyhoo, i think the 'support' here is funny as h ell, so keep it coming folks.
The real funny thing is that you guys call yourselves Ferrari fans, tifosi, whatever. You cut up Massa for his mistakes and thats ok........I guess but you guys go on and on and on like children. Maybe you guys are really "Trifosi" supporters of drivers whom you wish could be in a Ferrari.
Exactly, the only way the Massa haters can get attention is to talk out their ass about him. The more attention we give them by responding the more they get off on it. This also tells me what kind of people they are...
I wouldn't have a single issue with Massa if he were like all the other Ferrari #2 drivers accepting his role. I was the biggest Irvine fan and had no qualms with Barrichello. Couldn't care less whether he screwed up or not (don't care for the WCC). The thing that really irks me about Massa is his touting about being a WDC and being a #1 driver blablabla.
what's funny is the 'unconditional' love from you so called 'real' tifosi. uh, no thank you! as a Ferrari supporter i should think you have room to btch and moan as much as you want. Especially if you feel (for good reasons) that a driver in the line up is not deserving of his seat. Call me whacky, but a 'real' tifosi shouldn't be a blind fanboy...
Thank you for the kind words! On a different note Massa needs to come to terms that Kimi is simply a better driver overall. Nothing wrong with that as Kimi is outstanding. Once Massa truly realizes this I think he will narrow the gap.
+1 Just think about all the stuff Enzo said about his drivers. He lambasted even successful drivers like Lauda.
+1 There's no doubt Enzo is rolling over in his grave with things said on this post, but it's a different era, just like in every other sport
This and Andreas's post are the kind of posts that just degenerate this forum to a joke. First I disagree with everything you and Andreas have said. You are just guessing. Second, I answered the statistics in an earlier post, go back and read it. I am sure both you and Andreas have that ability. Bottom line, I compared him to Villeneuve, since Andreas considers him a "racing god", and Massa comes out ahead. My intent was to compare Ferrari years, that's it, no hidden agenda, but sadly your obviously myopic views prevent you from understanding. I liked Gilles, but he got himself killed being wreckless. He made a lot of mistakes, two of them cost lives. Some statistic that is. Even if you include Massa's 4 years at Sauber, he still comes out looking better than Villeneuve. While at Ferrari, he has not made such mistakes, not even close. Hopefully a driver improves with time. Massa has done just that, and very well. It makes no sense to include the Sauber years since he has shown so much improvement since he joined Ferrari. The reality is, Massa has made no more mistakes than the majority of the drivers that some of you seem to think were great. Please prove me wrong, I will listen and agree if you are correct. There is no empiracal information or statistics to support any of your comments about Massa. He did his best with a teammate and team orders while with Schumacher, damn, I would hope that 7 time WDC Schumacher would be able to handle Felipe. He did quite well with teammate Raikkonen, taking control the beginning of the season while Kimi floundered, and then stepping aside to help Kimi win the WDC. You overlook the problems created by his team that cost Massa the final run at the WDC, but this typically convenient of either of your arguments. At the end of the day, you may be right about Massa, but as of this moment, you are far from being even close to correct. You have nothing to support your opinions whatsover. Massa's record at Ferrari of wins, poles, fast laps look pretty good, even when compared to the supposedly much better Raikkonen. Take away the problems caused by his own team in 2007, and Massa excels. You opinions of his personality are a joke.
OK, how about these then: Time to 100 posts: Massa Supports thread: 2 days 4 hours 32 minutes Massa Sucks thread: 1 day 13 hours 48 minutes Total posts in the first 48 hours: Massa Supports thread: 88 Massa Sucks thread: 143 Total posts to this point for Massa Support thread 124 (2 days 9 hours 17 minutes) Total posts at that same point in time for Massa Sucks thread: 161
