328 handling caveats? | Page 2 | FerrariChat

328 handling caveats?

Discussion in '308/328' started by ducowti, Apr 2, 2008.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    It was how it was done at the time. Road surfaces were much more variable, shock damping was an NVH-derived equation and the sidewalls were part of the spring rate calculations! :)

    If you want body roll, try an Alfa! The desire to preserve suspension travel with the softness required to insure good traction and reasonable ride quality on secondary roads was the guiding force. A 3X8 feels like a Carrera GT coming from the Alfa. It's not a "nimble" car because of it's mass, but it is a stable platform even with the roll.

    It's proven that mechanical grip is unaffected by roll softness, just as it is that a driver's confidence is sometimes sapped by that same roll softness.

    An unintended consequence of the "stiffening" of modern hi-po cars is that there is less warning and less sensory feedback given to the driver when reaching the "limits."

    This is why there are a lot more cars being damaged at modern DE events. The cars are better than the drivers, by far, but the drivers are unable to "calibrate" their rears until it's too late...

    I agree with the post about being more afraid of understeer. I LIKE my car to "tuck it's nose in" with a gentle lift of the throttle. That means it's properly balanced! :)
     
  2. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
    2,800
    Full Name:
    F683

    I'll probably figure it out as soon as I hit the submit button but...... what's NVH?

    Wouldn't the sidewalls still be a factor if we are using the same size tires as originally equipped? I suspect current Formula 1 tires are a VERY big portion of the suspension equation since the wheels are tiny (diameter) by modern standards and the sidewalls are high. Is that correct?
     
  3. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    NVH=Noise, Vibration and Harshness. The "big three" subjective analyses of OE vehicle and tire manufacturers.

    Yes, the sidewalls would, but now nearly everyone is using 35, 40 and 35 aspect-ratio tires on HUGE diameter rims as opposed to the standard 70 series aspect ratio original to the 3X8 design.

    You've hit the nail on the head with your F1 observation. Tremendous amount of science going into the dynamic spring rate with the tires that tall. The tire companies, even for entry-level Pro series here in the States will provide you with their rate, if you wish!

    Part of the challenge of F1...
     
  4. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I can only speculate, but I think it was mainly a compromise to deliver excellent road manners. All the 308's and 328's I have owned were a delight on the road and satisfying to drive at 6-8 10ths. Plus, I think the design is pretty old school when it was thought that sliding through turns was the ticket. Some years ago, I used to see modified 308's on tracks once in a while that were truly terrors, so the overall design/balance of the car is very capable. I haven't seen any track 308's lately perhaps because you can buy any number of modern performance cars far cheaper up front and to maintain.

    Notice in the photo taken some years ago that there is a lot of suspension travel and quite a bit of deflection on the tires even though these are 17 inch.
     
  5. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    #30 hardtop, Apr 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  6. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
    2,800
    Full Name:
    F683
    Thanks for the info. guys.

    PS. nice shot of your 328 Dave :)
     
  7. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    I've been instructing for the FCA at Summit Point for a long time and I own a 87 328GTS. I've always considered the 328 a very predictable trackable car. I've driven a lot faster cars but most have some hidden demons that will come out and bite you at the worst times.
     
  8. jb74

    jb74 Rookie

    Mar 18, 2008
    16

    You are correct that if you are understeering into a corner, briefly lifting (not all the way out of the throttle) allows the weight to transfer to the front tires thus provide some more traction on turn in. You would then look to slowly feed back power in to transfer weight back to the rears to keep the car from coming around.
     
  9. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,930
    CA and OR
    Full Name:
    pit bull
    I recall a person comapring a 997 to a 3X8 series . .. I had a stock 996 that would not turn in anything like my stock 308 (new suspension on 308 now so turn in and mechanical grip is pretty incredible) . . . P really dialed it out of these newer cars . . .had to trail brake (this is when you stay on the brakes . .. just barely . . . as you start to turn in . . really changes the front grip but watch the rear :)) like a mad man to get any kind of initial bite . . first time I autox'd my 308 after driving the 996 for a couple of years I spun her on the first corner entry because of my trail braking habits the new P car had developed.

    One of the guys at the P car club with an all wheel drive 996 unhooked the front drive line and decreased his lap times (factory trained P guy did it for him . .. . wasn't complicated). My point being a lot of these high tech mod's by the factory do not actually make a car faster . . they make it so a guy with limited experience can drive fast . .. ultimately creating a totally numb feel behind the wheel IMO.

    I have been sorting my '81 308 for a while now and as far as cornering goes I think it compares to any new cars . . . 0-60 5.5 sec which isn't as fast as a Vette or 997 but she makes up for it in the corners which is where these cars shine IMO . . except the wet sump :(.
     
  10. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,150
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Isn't the limited slip also responsible for pushing the front end straight? So, backing out of it tends to reduce the front end push which also enables the front to tuck in?

    Someone once described oversteer as "that is when the passenger is scared"
    and understeer "that is when the driver is scared"

    best,
    chris
     
  11. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    In that age of a diff design, only under power. Nearly all street car, ZF-style "plate type" diffs act only under the acceleration ramp.

    Where F1 was pioneering, and has been since picked up by sports racers and GT cars and even a few high-end street cars is the adoption of varying "coast" ramps on the diff, effectively making it a 2-way limited slip. Makes a huge difference on corner entry behavior...

    How backing out reduces the front end push is to transfer the weight of the vehicle further forward and increase the front outer tire contact patch, causing the amount of cornering grip to increase. What causes the front to "tuck in" is the unequal transfer that occurs by lifting after you've already turned in from the inside front to the outside, loaded front. The car responds and pivots on the point of greatest grip, which is the tire with the biggest contact patch.

    The way you "dance" with your 3300 lb "dance partner" will influence directly the speed at which "she" responds. Too abrupt and off you go... Gently, but decisively and in the right measure, pure bliss!

    That's why I have MAJOR job security! :)
     
  12. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,930
    CA and OR
    Full Name:
    pit bull
    Can you elaborate on the diff differences :)

    My 308's have a bunch of static breakaway between left and right wheel (100+ ft-lbs if I recall) . . .

    The 348 has barely any static breakaway and a few others compared their 348's.

    I have a 911 race car with a Quaffe tq bias diff that's "somewhere in between".

    I have looked at 308 diff's a bunch but not 348 diff's . .. in the manual they look the same . .. even the ramp angles look the same in a pic that Ernie posted in 348 section.

    So is the new thinking no posi action during braking and turn in and ramp it up under power? I've been wondering if this is what makes the 348 so twitch i.e. going from almost open diff to limited slip in the middle of a corner.

    I think both the manuals call out 40% limited slip (308 and 348) . . . how does this relate to different action during acceleration and deceleration and how can a person quantify this with a static test? I want to understand why the 348 diff is so different and I read the 348 diff rebuild thread and links in depth but no answer on how you measure this.

    Thanks,

    Sean
     
  13. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
  14. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I know what you mean. I tracked a STI for a couple of years. It was very quick but Subaru put a lot of understeer in probably to keep kids from killing themselves. I dialed out much of it with more front negative camber but it still liked heavy trail braking. Once in a turn, the line was easily adjusted with the throttle. My 328 responded well with a little trail braking. Last year I tracked my 430 mostly and initially tried trail braking like the STI and quickly learned that was not advisable. I didn't spin but it was pretty unsettled. The Subie was fun but it certainly did not have the grace and balance of a 308 or 328.

    Dave
     
  15. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    Like I said before the 328 is a pretty easy well behaved car to drive. Whoever mentioned prefering oversteer to understeer is in for a rude awakening when they start driving into the turns faster. Certain rear engine cars like the 911's can be driven fast with the rear end hanging out a bit but oversteer at high speeds can and usually does get out of control in a blink of an eye. More so for an inexperienced driver.

    When someone talks to me about the front end plowing into a turn the first question I ask is which turn? Are you talking a high speed sweeping turn or a tight 2nd gear turn at the end of a hard braking section at the end of a straight? Very few drivers do the later correctly. Even racers with years of racing including a lot of instructors don't really enter these turns properly. It's one thing to learn the line, it's another to really understand the "Friction Circle". At Summit Point I'll ask how the car handles through turn 10 or down the chute verses turn one or turn five at the end of the chute. If they tell me the car is great through ten and four but pushes like a pig through one and five I look to fix the driver not the car.

    When asked they usually tell me they go down to the end of the straight, mash on the brakes with all they are capable and then when they get to the turn in they do one of two things, either think they are still going too fast and try and hold their foot on the brake as they turn the wheel expecting the car to turn while they are using 100% of the available traction for braking or more common is when they get to the turn in they remove their foot from the brake, crank the wheel in and stomp on the gas and again expect the front wheels to turn the car in. If you think about what the car is going through you are basically plastering the front end of the car down on the pavement under braking, turning the wheel and stomping on the gas which has the effect of trying to get the front end of the car to do a wheelie and then wondering why the front end plows through the turn. I see about 98% of the guys I have raced with over the years do this.
     
  16. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,396
    Texas!
    I have never been to Summit Point, but I'd like to guess as to the right way to run T1.

    Line up on the left.
    Brake very late.
    Turn in early.
    Trail brake all the way thru the apex.
    Then once you feel the front start to hook up, roll on the throttle.

    How did I do?

    It looks like T2 at Laguna, but with a single apex.

    Dale
     
  17. Rosso328

    Rosso328 F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 11, 2006
    6,795
    Central FL
    Full Name:
    Paul
    T2 at Laguna is definitely a rough one. I have not taken my 328 there, but have run both a 997 and a Boxster through it. The Boxster handling was very close to the 328. Very neutral, balanced, and actually difficult to slide. We won't talk about me and the 997...

    So far I have never had the rears let go in the 328. I have come into several corners too hot and had to lift in order to stay on the pavement. But I have never yet felt the back end come loose. Understeer, yeah, plenty of times. Oversteer? Just does not seem to happen.
     
  18. bill brooks

    bill brooks F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 30, 2007
    5,193
    waynesburg,pa
    Full Name:
    bill brooks
    i must confess that my venture into the world of exotics is quite limited.
    however, i have attended 2 bmw factory driving schools at the nurburgring (nordschliefe) and a couple of other
    domestic schools. i consider myself a reasonably competent driver who can hold his own.
    it is hard for me to admit, but i find gabriella (my 328) to be a little on the disappointing side when it comes to handling.
    call me an antichrist for stating this but i've driven numerous cars which will exceed her capabilities.
    everytime i drive in more than a "spirited" manner, i keep hearing darrel waltrip say "pushing, pushing hard in the corners".
    now i don't mean to upset anyones sensibilities and i will staunchly defend my fcar to the last, but this car has some
    deficiencies that leave her behind in the handling category.(kumho tires, btw). my '74 2002 would certainly not be left
    in the corners all things being equal if the 2 were matched back to back.
    you might say it's the mid-engine concept with it's lower polar moment. i don't think so. either you guys are bs'ing yourselves
    into thinking you have a slotcar on rails or there is something decidedly inferior about my car in terms of its suspension/tire setup.
    i'd love to get other owners "true" impressions of their car.
     
  19. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,930
    CA and OR
    Full Name:
    pit bull
    I think I'm doing what Enzo wishes every 3x8 owner would do . ... beat up on P cars ;).

    http://results.pcasdr.org/event_overall.php?event_date=2007-11-10&database=&time_format=0#-604

    I came in 40th overall with street tires (16" Toyos) and stock shocks and springs . .. had bigger swaybars and urethane bushings though.

    Anything in "SS" class is comparable mod's IMO (beat by 2 cars) . .. the last autoX with new suspension (QA1's and stiffer springs) but still same street tires put me even with the fastest Boxster and Cayman which beat the 911's with equivalent mod's . .. my motor's not stock but I think about equivalent power to a 328. No weight saving mod's to speak of either ('81 US 308).

    I've made a few believers out of the P contingent :).

    Next time with Hoosiers should be in the top 10 which will freak them boys out :) . .. if they let me run :).

    These are autocross results with the local Porsche club which run pretty fast and take their machines seriously . .. I suck on big tracks . .. the same guys I beat up with my P car by a couple seconds autoX'g are about 10-15 seconds faster than me on big tracks. That being said it is really a BLAST beating P cars (new and old) with the 308 even though it is just in a parking lot :). Some recent experiences on the track combined with excellent instruction/people at the P club reminds me it's not safe to push on a big track like we do autox'g unless you have a cage IMO.

    Sean
     
  20. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    I'd say yes except the turn in is a little late. In general I don't teach the trail braking to beginer drivers untill they have most everything else down but your right. It's a very difficult balance to keep the front end loaded and trail brake to the apex and it takes a great deal of feel of what the car is doing at different points in the turn in to modulate the brake properly.

    A couple reasons I only teach it to advanced drivers. For one you brake much later and carry much more speed into the turn. If done properly your fate is determined the instant you hit the brake on the straight and you have to have the confidence to start to release pressure on the brake as you turn in or the car will drive straight into the wall. Another reason is it's hard to convince people that it's faster to brake to the apex than get on the gas sooner and accelerate through the apex. Mostly, I want them to have consistancy and a perfect line and the ability to concentrate and feel what the car is doing which most never get there. Some cars are more forgiving then others. A stiff car with slicks is not going to be very forgiving or give much warning before spinning. It's easy to talk about but very few do it properly.
     
  21. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,285
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I don't think anyone referred to them as slot cars on rails. I know I said more modern cars eat them for lunch. Nevertheless, if your car is pushing like a truck, you need to get the alignment checked. I've tracked a lot of different cars besides Ferraris, and I have always thought that while the 3X8's are not very quick for reasons noted above, I would rate their overall balance as excellent compared to most cars.

    Dave
     
  22. bill brooks

    bill brooks F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 30, 2007
    5,193
    waynesburg,pa
    Full Name:
    bill brooks
    i kind of suspected alignment already. when i bought the car, it felt sort of uncertain and definitely understeered!
    i also surmised that was due to dissimilar(incorrect) tires on the front.the dealer alignment was ok but not definitive.
    new tires helped more than anything if for no other reason than all 4 are now properly sized and same brand.
    perhaps i should consider a re-balance on hunter's new 4-wheel machine.
    the last time i drove a mid-engined car, it felt just the opposite. willing to go thru corners without coaxing and it was
    by no means a ferrari!
     
  23. KKRace

    KKRace Formula 3

    Aug 6, 2007
    1,052
    Rockville/Olney MD
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    What are you doing when you feel this push? What type of turn, how fast are you on the throttle? I agree with Hardtop, I'd much rather be out there with a new Z06 vette but all in all I feel my 328 is a very well behaved car and holds it's own against other 1987 vintage cars. If you want to feel push try driving a 512BB.
     
  24. Spyker 007

    Spyker 007 Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2008
    2,181
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Jeffrey
  25. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Pretty easy. First the track was wet, then when he downshifted, he neglected to blip the throttle and match revs, which caused the rears to lock or drag and spin the car.

    The track also crests right there...
     

Share This Page