Timing Belt Failure After Only 150mi!! WTF!?!?

oohh man, sorry to hear and see. this is exactly why I updated the design and the belt. a couple points, belts are age related, from the pics it looks like a construction failure. the belts are made in a spiral wound process, and that seems to be how it separated out. they most likely are older belts too, sitting on a shelf. another point is how the belts are shipped, I've received belts that have been folded way to small and rejected them, if the radius of the bend is smaller than 2" dia then it will break the internal cords and set you up for that type of failure. all my info comes from the engineers at Gates and Continental.

here's a link to the new pulleys if you haven't seen it http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91286&highlight=adjustable+cam&page=5

 

I believe that you have that backwards. It's the 70's 308 have no inside flat covers and they were added in the 80's -- see:

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTable.asp?M=1&Mo=662&A=1&B=38780&S=

(although this illustration is for the euro version 308QV, the US version 308QV SPC also shows them on TAV 8 -- I'm unsure if they were used on the 308i-2V or not)

The tricky bit is that the flat covers need to be put in place before installing the timing belts. Often the Assembler forgets this step and only realizes the mistake after he/she has got the timing belts on so doesn't go back to correct the error and leaves the flat covers off. You should consider putting the flat covers back on during your repair IMO.

 

hahahah, oh man that was me yesterday on a 3.2, totally flip'n forgot the covers. it all had to come off again to put it on, cam pullies too! that's what happens when you're working late. lost about 45min on that one. oh well, it's done right now. oh and yes the cam covers were on too, had to undo the cams and everything! uggh

 

too tell if you should have a backside cover, look at the back of the belt cover and see if you have M3 threaded holes, if not no cover, if so then you have a cover.

looking at your pisc again, you have bosses on the cover with the threaded holes, your covers seem to be missing.

 

Don't know if it's the same on 308's but Euro 328's do not come with the back covers although the front covers have the threaded holes.

 

I should've looked at more than the picture -- the US & euro 308QV SPC says the flat covers were used only up to engine SN 2187 (although I can imaging why they would drop them).

 

Adaptel,
I can feel your pain....

Your post will cause me sleepless nights until 83958 is back on the road **and** with more than 150 miles!

Can anybody decipher the belt numbers into a 'batch'? If so, would the 'batch' number be similar for the TR series?

I hope to compare the TR belts that I put on my car to determine if they are from the same batch. The engine is still out, so I still have time to change them if needed.

Man-o-man, I feel your pain. The bright side..... at least we derrive pleasure from 'working on them' as well. It could be worse, you could be in a legal battle with a shop AND Dayco while you also dump a huge additional amount of $ into another shop to re-do the work.

Best wishes...

Rgds,
Vince

 

and I thought I'd never be able to sell the pair I have on the shelf

 

It might be worthwhile to chat with some folks like this:
http://www.rapid-response-consulting.com/article050707a.html

google under:
"failure analysis" consultant belt

it may help you to get the attention of the dayco folks (best case) or it may help you determine the root cause and not repeat it once again during the repair.

Good luck,
Vince

 

did you check for a siezed cam? perhaps due to silicon in an oil galley(?)
Rgds,
Vince

 

I am so sorry to hear about this. It was an OEM belt no?

 

Or cam bearing caps mixed up......


Jay

 

Did you put a straight edge across the cogs?

 

Kevin and I discussed this, as we're friends and neighbors...

Back in 1983, I purchased a brand new Euro 308QV GTB...and at 1,200 miles, whilst pulling into a driveway (engine speed just over idle), the front-most timing belt broke. The sames sounds and belt appearance as Kevin's car. As the car was a "Euro", there was no warranty. A big ouch!

Long story short, I recall a conversation with someone (vendor or perhaps a Ferrari dealer) later on that there were "issues" with the "white-lettered" belts and the new replacements had "yellow" lettering and/or a different part numer. I recall, although this was nearly 25 years ago, that there was even a TSB on this subject. My feelings, based on changing 100's of belts on these cars, is that this is simply (albeit, an expensive result of) a defective belt, perhaps even a NOS one.

Although I find the theory of "no inner covers" interesting, I know for certain that my BB never had them, nor have I ever had an issue with debris destroying a belt. I would say that less than 50% of the 308/328 variety of cars that I've changed belts on don't have inner covers...and I suspect, many did not even have them initially equpped from the factory.

I'd be on the phone with RT and FNA demanding restitution, if it were my car.

Onward,
David

 

Yes, it is quite the achilles heel. You would only need one small hard thingy to fall into one of four places on each belt....so you easily have 8 points where a belt is aggressively meeting either a toothed wheel or a bearing. At that point comes the big squeeze..its just like any feed chute, and the belt would most likely be cut instantly or at least a hole punched through.

Check each toothed wheel surface and bearing surface 360 degrees and look for a mark. If something got in there, it probably left one.

My 2 cents.

-Rjay

 

Whoa Nellie...!!! All you folks out there calling for blood lust from RTGT and Dayco need to slow down a bit...

While I could not be more sympathetic for Kevin. The fact is you really don't (and likely can never) know, with complete certainty, what happened with these belts. These parts have been through a lot of hands on their way to their final destination. And, anyone along the way could have damaged them... there are many possibilities...

1) Were they defective from Dayco?
2) Were they aged NOS (and past their "use by date") from RTGT?
3) How many people have touched them and may have mishandled / mistreated them?
4) If they were shipped, did the UPS guy step on the box in the back of his truck?
5) While they were being installed, did something accidentally damage them?
6) Has any contaminant been spilled on them at any point?

It's more complicated than simply pointing the finger at someone.

What you can do is call Dayco, and find out if these belts came from any lots previously identified as "suspect" --- Do it casually. Say that you have had these belts for a while, and you're wondering whether or not to use them or get fresh ones --- don't let them know you've already installed them and had a failure.

Also, place a polite call to RTGT, and calmly tell them what happened. These guys have been around a long time, and they have an outstanding reputation for customer service and satisfied customers. I can guarantee that if you don't accuse them of "screwing you over" right off the bat, they will do everything they can to assist you and to try to make you happy.

Regards,

 

Please add more clarity.... am unsure of the implication.
Rgds,
Vince

 

I once blew a brand new belt back in college, thankfully on a non-interference engine, and it turned out the belt was 10+ years old and dry-rotted! I would call Dayco and without giving them too much info, just see if there is a way to date the belts ie. just like you can on tires....there is usually a secret code somewhere.

 

During assembly did you put a straight edge across the cogs to see if they were aligned? I've busted blower belts due to not having perfectly aligned cogs.

 

In honesty, this is why I am not an advocate of changing out the belt(s) and associated parts every 3 years. It's extreme overkill and every time you do it, you run the risk of replacing perfectly good parts with faulty ones. And the more often you do it, the better your chances of this happening.

My grand dad always said "NEVER, NEVER tear into a perfectly good running engine."

 

While that's true, they did add a couple of things starting with engine s/n 2188, TAV8 #45,46,48, & 49. I own an '85 Euro with these on it. 45 & 46 are pointers to the cam gear flange timing marks, in lieu of the almost impossible to see metal arrows on the rear belt covers that were eliminated. The other two parts are described as:
48 - Protection plate for right belt.
49 - Protection plate for left belt.

I've never seen an SB for this change & I have a pretty complete set. Just missing the 87-88 SBs (assuming they were ever printed).


BTW, See SB 10-9 Toothed Timing Belts - P.N. 111334 w/White markings 9/26/84

Starting from 4V chassis #47221/Engine # 336 engines are equipped with a belt made with 'higer temperature resistant compound' . The new belt has white markings and the same part # as the older belt with green markings.

A similar white marking belt is introduced for the 2V engines.

 

What a horrible thing to happen! Looking at that belt it would appear that rubbing or a foreign object was the cause. If a cam had siezed it would have ripped the teeth straight off the belt and no more. However,while the engine's beeing stripped, a thorough check of the oil gallerys to the cam caps should be carried out, just in case any machining debris has caused oil starvation. Good luck with your repair, i hope you get to enjoy your car again soon.

 

My sympathies go out to you. This has got to be gut-wrenching! I hope the internal damage is minimal.

JIM