HIGH MAINTENANCE

you will find a very different experience with a ferrari as opposed to a chevy. The most obvious difference is that chevy makes 40,000 corvettes in a year. Ferrari made 7177 tr's total in about 8 years. The numbers just aren't there to work out every tweek. also, as you noted, the tr probably gets less miles put on it that a corvette. I also imagine that your recent experience was with newer vettes and the tr is some 20 years old. What does all this mean? the tr is not as well thought out and debugged as a chevy. they just didn't make anywhere near as many. A tr is not generally considered a daily driver. it is large, has no power sterring and is a bear around town. You seem like a 328 guy. my 328 has been relatively trouble free and i'm sure i could daily drive it if i want. Tr's are gt cars and more at home on the open road. I would say more of a weekend in the country car that a daily driver. Don't be too scared away by the nervous nellies on this sight. big problems that cost alot of money are much more exciting to talk about than a car that needs nothing. Luckily, they are much more uncommon too. I don't want to make light of it though. If you break a ferrari, it's not like breaking a chevy.

 

If you like Testarossa's, pay the premium and get a 512TR. Much better car IMHO.

As for your question... with a TR or any ferrari you must be prepared for a $10K maint bill at any time. and $30K bills are possible.

Reading this thread would be worth your time...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112201

In general, A 328 will be much more friendly to your wallet!

Simon

 

High maintenance is expected with exotics: it is not a matter of interpretation or relativism. In the end, it is an emotional decision that can never be rationalized, but think of the reward and satisfaction of it (once again, emotional matters).
Good luck in your decision and search processes.

Btw, Corvettes are terrific cars with proud automotive and racing histories.

 

Another thing to consider... if you can turn a wrench, and have the time and the inclination, you can do an awful lot of the maintenance and repair on the older F-cars. That can cut down on the costs substantially. But the costs will still never be in Corvette territory just because some of the parts are so expensive.

- Eric

 

I had a slightly different experience, because I went euro early.

American cars of the muscle car era were built for the home handyman -- they had maybe three moving parts, they run 'till they stop, and any schlebb could work on them.

During the gas shortages, the US firms tried to emulate the Japanese model -- they run and run and run ... and keep getting worse all the time. They can be serviced: with a shop full of specialty tools and some very tiny trained mice to get into the tight spots. Some parts just can't be serviced; when they wear out, you throw away the car.
(Ricers have modified the factory Japanese model -- the aftermarket parts are far more adjustable than stock.)

But Euro cars are designed to be maintained regularly. If you don't maintain them, they stop in short order. Properly maintained, they last until they rust away.

So there are the different models:
Hot rods: run 'em till they stop, then change the rubber band yourself.
Japanese: run 'em till they stop, then replace 'em.
European: maintain them annually, and run 'em forever.

So Ferrari maintenance wasn't a great shock to me. I've been driving Italian cars since the President was named Ford.
Having switched from Mopar, I did my own work on the Fiat. But the Alfa was a different matter. I left that to a factory trained race mechanic to maintain. Alfas were my daily drivers for ten years, and, properly maintained, rarely let me down. The Alfa spider I bought new in '79 I still own.

FWIW, when I bought a ST-165 (WRC homologation Celica turbo awd), and maintained it to the same level, it ate just as much in maintenance as the Italians. I kept it for 15 years, and only sold it when the EVOs became available in the US (and the Toyota parts departments were disavowing any knowledge of the ST165s).

Over the same 4 year period, the '88 Celica and the '88 Ferrari 328, at the same level of maintenance, cost just about as much to maintain. During that period, the "AllTrac" Celica was my daily driver in winter, and the 328 was my daily driver in summer.

I think the reason so many Italian cars get a reputation for being "fragile" or "unreliable" in the US is because US owners aren't used to putting the service into cars that euro machines need.

BMW and Audi took to supplying "free" service, in order to get the cars back into the shops once in a while. Between computerization and US regulations (15Kmile plugs, etc.), the newer german cars have extended their time between services.

But the Italians of the '70s and '80s still expect routine maintenance -- a phrase that doesn't really mean anything to most US or Japanese car owners. Heck, people don't even check their tire pressures, anymore, and rarely check their oil. I'd guess most SUV owners don't even know how to check their transmission fluids.

To achieve this, US and Japanese cars tend to be detuned -- they aren't running at peak. (Which is one reason for the "tuner" crowd -- there's a lot more to be gotten out of a stock ricer.) Older Italian cars are running at peak, and need maintenance to stay there. (Once you tweak a Japanese car, you have to keep up with that, too.)

My ST-165 was a homologation machine, so it was a bit more performance oriented than most Celicas. But it was stock 190 HP out of 2L, and the tuners were getting up to 340 ponies out of it -- and more, with upgraded fuel rails.

But Italians are peak tuned when you get them. So you're expected to put the maintenance into them. If you do, then they become reliable. If you don't, they get "fragile" and "unreliable".

Italians aren't designed to sit. They run better the more you run them. But people who are used to US or Japanese cars do the math, figure out that they can swing the loan to buy a Ferrari, and then leave them sit, because they didn't budget for the service.

And there's another factor. Italian cars are built for drivers. Did you see the Top Gear episode with the BMW that drives itself around the track? The company that brags it's the "ultimate driver's machine" is building to do away with the driver completely. A Ferrari really *is* a "driver's machine". It's build to be driven. My 328 practically begs to be heel and toed. It's a car that rewards proper driving. And punishes inattention.

Forget cell phones. When you drive a classic Italian, you *drive*. You're not just along for the ride.

That can be tiring, in a daily driver in the city. So some people will gravitate to using a road appliance for the commute, leaving the Ferrari for when they're in the mood. (A pity, because your skills can lose their edge if you don't practice them.)

So I'd say it's not a case of a Ferrari being a "high maintenance" machine. It's just not a car that lets you get away with giving it less attention than you should.

 

What he said. Apart from the ~$4,000 major service every 3-5 years, I haven't found my 328 to be expensive to own. Just buy a really good car to start so you're not replacing a bunch of 20+ year old parts all at once. I think $5000/yr is good to budget just in case something goes really wrong, but apart from timing belt service costs I haven't gone over $1000/year.

I only know a couple of guys who use their Ferraris daily (or close to it). One of them owns a Ferrari service facility and the other is an accomplished DIYer.

And the Countach is on another planet. Plan for $10,000 for a clutch replacement, IIRC, and make sure you drive one before you consider it as a daily driver. It's a good poster car, but a wretched car to drive anywhere other than a track. The clutch alone will have you doing leg presses every trip to the gym.

To be fair, you should experience the TR and 328 in person before deciding you want to drive those every day. They were the first Ferraris designed for American roads, but being stuck in traffic in either can make you question where Italians learned about air conditioning/ventilation, and every cell-phone-using soccer mom in a Ford Expedition is going to be oblivious to your little exotic car in the next lane.

 

Seconded and vote carries! I think you'll get all the Ferrari you've dreamed about in a 328.
I know I do - and I 100% agree with all of the above statements.

Jedi

 

And the Countach is on another planet. Plan for $10,000 for a clutch replacement, IIRC, and make sure you drive one before you consider it as a daily driver. It's a good poster car, but a wretched car to drive anywhere other than a track. The clutch alone will have you doing leg presses every trip to the gym.[/QUOTE]

The truth has never been said more plainly. The countach is not a daily driver for sure! I will say this my last corvette was a 2004 Triple Black. I owned it for three years and put only 2700 miles on it total. It was in perfect condition when sold and I lost almost exactly 10k on the sale. I bought my current 97 355 Spider after and it has very similar performance and it gets a lot more attention. The cost when you look at it from that perspective is almost exactly the same!!!!
I forgot to mention this is due to the fact that if you stick to the models of F-car you mentioned not only will the value hold but if well taken care of you might find yourself making a few dollars after enjoying such a great car for a few years. The depreciation is already gone unlike a newer vette needed to atleast perform like the F-car.

 

+1

I really do not see were people are spending 5k per year for maintenance. Routine maintenance should not be that much, you usually replace worn out or broken parts, and that can add up, but if you are frugal and can do the work yourself then your way ahead.

A major service and timing belts are were you spend your money.
Oh yeah, on exhaust, tires, wheels, big brakes, cool shift knobs................... so on.

Don't drive a TR or a Countach every day, they are not for that IMO, the Corvette's and Porsche's are much more suited for that. But if you get a TR it will blow you away! The sound is a symphony, the looks are hypnotic when its in your garage, and you will be married for life, you might take care of it better than your real wife... "so I've heard".

The Tr is in another world compared with the Corvette.

The Countach is for looking at, it's a big heavy bull. Driving it everyday would be like driving and old dump truck with no power steering. That's what my Diablo is like and it is supposed to be an improvement from the Countach.

 

That thread gives me occasional nightmares and I commend Rob for keeping his cool through that headache. It is a good example that while rare, the big repair bill should never be ruled out.

 

The testarossa really is more of a special occasion car. To be honest, it really isn't something I would want to drive frequently. Its a "take it out once a week or so" kind of car.

First, it takes about 15+ minutes to warm up, which is a huge pain in the azz. The motor sounds fantastic, and you feel like you are in a very special car when you drive it. But, about an hour after I get in it, I want to get out. By then the motor blasting 1 foot behind my head gives me a headache... Geesh... I must be getting old. And if you ever get stuck in traffic for 2 hours, you will be miserable... this is not a clutch that likes traffic. Aircon works great radio/acoustics are horrible. Its a cool highway car.

I hate to say it, but I enjoy driving my 914 way more. Ready to go in a couple minutes, fun to drive even on side streets, etc.

A testarossa is something you get in order to experience a 12 cylinder ferrari. Plus, its quick enough that it won't embarrass itself against other cars. It was/is the 80's flagship. I suspect the countach is the same, just more exaggerated in every way... .

If you want something to drive frequently, get a 308. I totally understand why TR's have the low mileage they do. I enjoy my car like I enjoy chocolate - its nice when you indulge, but you don't want it for every meal...

 

why do so many older Fcars have such low mileage used, and so many of the newer ones are higher mileage? I suspect there's a large amount of odometer editing occurring. easy to do, tough to catch.

I thought I wanted a BBi when I started looking, but settled on a 348 spider, and much happier. Fast enough to be fun, easy enough to drive in the city, easily fixed by my mechanic.

Go drive a few and have some fun - the hunt is part of the pleasure!

 

Welcome to Fchat. I have a few Vettes too: 68 roadster, 93 roadster, 07 Z06 and 2 512TRs and a 512M

to me the TR is 1 of the most beautiful cars but maintenance is A LOT more than a Vette

you can save $ on maintenance by buying a car that can have its major service w the engine IN the car like the 360 or 430

I know its not as pretty as a TR

early TRs are probably cheaper to maintain than a 512TR or 512M bcus the engine removal is easier

but the 512TR & 512M are much better to drive bcus they have a 1 piece frame instead of the 2 piece frame of the earlier cars

 

Please promise me you will drive a TR and 3xx. They are VERY differant cars. Although I'm sure some TR guys will flame me, I can't drive them, they wear me out. If you love the TR styling, look seriously at the 348. Lower overall maint costs, lower ops costs, similar price, and some say its faster (dunno about that, more nimble for sure).

Fill in your personal data on your profile...maybe we can find you a ride.

 

Well there are kit cars, then there are replicas

Most people here look down on fiberglass 308s, testarossas etc

There are however some extremely nicely done replicas that use real Ferrari parts & frames

such as people who take a 250GTE remove the body and create a quality replica of a 250 GTO or a Testa Rossa

I like these replicas since the originals are pretty much unobtainable unless you have a few $M to burn

then again some people dont like these either

and some people even had a problem w Napolis' exquisite P4/5

I think its a fantastic work of art

 

The Ferrari dealer here in Dallas has a beautiful building with lots of land and a wonderfully equipped service department. They only get a few new Ferraris a year (like all dealerships, I assume) and it would be impossible to pay the overhead on car sales and normal car maintenance alone. Maybe, just maybe, the recommended service goes a little overboard. I know the cars are highly tuned and the owners (at least of the later model ones) are pretty well-healed financially and they want to keep their cars in perfect condition, but if they didn't have annual service regardless of miles I don't think the cars would fall apart or quit working. It's a willing relationship. For the peace of mind, for the insurance of it, and even just for the involvement in it, they don't resent this little interaction with the dealer. I don't think the parts "have" to cost that much and I don't think the labor rate "has" to be so high. But if it weren't, how could the dealer stay in business on just a few new cars a year and such a deluxe facility? I think the factory realizes this and kept "belt service" and other high-replacement cost services long past their time. An F430 has a more modern maintenance schedule than a 360 and this probably indicates that the factory will probably be making more cars so the money tree will be on sales instead of service. Just my practical thoughts on the subject and I'm not trying to get anyone to forego service. My F430 goes in for service regularly and I don't resent it. Usually there's an upgrade or something caught I didn't know about and the peace of mind is worth it. However, years ago I had a 550 Maranello and I lived far from a Ferrari dealership. I did service, repairs and modifications (Tubi and built-in radar detector) myself and the dealer sent the parts under warranty and I only fixed what was broken. The car seemed simple enough. I applaud the 3xx owners who work on their own cars and they'll probably tell you the car repairs like any other.
On the TR vs. Countach vs. Vette discussion: I've never had a Countach but I've had the others. A Vette is a daily driver, a TR is not. A 355 and a 550 are daily drivers and so is a 430. But they do get dirty and they are hard to explain dirty. Just kidding.

 

My 328 has cost me an average of about 1K/year for maintenance and repairs (very minor) over 6+ years. Most of that was one lump for major service. Last year was pretty typical with an oil change.

In a nutshell: models that require engine out service (TR, 348 & 355) cost more for service. Every model has some weak spots, some more than others. Do a search here for specifics.

Dave

 

High maint is not standard with exotics, it's standard with older exotics such as the TR, Countach, etc. It's also expected in ANY car exotic or not where owners let their cars sit for 3-4 months at a time and put 500 miles on it a year.

I daily drive an F355, I take it on trips I pretty much take it everywhere I go if the weather allows. This year I will average about 16,000 miles on it.

The car costs me absolutely nothing minus oil changes and clutch. If you are mechanically inclined the major service is $1,500 in parts and the rest is labor and this is every 30,000 miles if you actually drive your car. I bought my Mom a Mercedes Benz ML320 and so far it has cost more this year then my F355.

Buy the car. DRIVE THE CAR and enjoy it.

Don't let it sit there like a sicko in a climate controlled garage driving it the third sunday of every month.

 

Forgot to mention the really nice replicas are usually $100k and up

Favre 250GTO replicas are near $1M but they are PERFECT replicas