Massa Support Thread

1. It is not my "Massa Sucks" thread, someone else started it.

2. I have yet to see anyone with a two-sided opinion, other than a politician.

3. Are you aware that Massa's manager is Jean Todt's son? Have you considered that fact when you tell us that Massa secured a seat with Ferrari? Do you think that might have had something to do with it?

4. Are you aware that Michael Schumacher handpicked who he was willing to drive alongside and that he purposefully refused to allow a competitive driver in the second seat? Do you think he might have looked at Massa and thought "this guy is no threat"?

5. Are you aware of the reasons behind the criticism of Massa? Are you aware that there are plenty of other drivers in F1 that could do equally well, if not better, in that seat than Massa? Are you aware that Massa has never beaten his teammate in equal cars his entire career?

6. Are you aware that Ferrari has lost the WCC the last two season on the track because Massa failed to deliver sufficient points? Are you aware that the only reason Ferrari got the WCC last season was due to off-track judgements?

7. Coming from a guy who was using the term Asslondo, do you really think you have the right to criticize me? Find one single post where I resorted to slandering Massa rather than deal strictly and solely with the facts. Unlike you, I have command of my subject and facts and I can put together a coherent argument in support of my position without having to resort to sophomoric and cartoonish lampooning. When you get to that point, maybe then you can debate me.

 

I don't care to rehash last years arguments about cheating but the McLaren was designed in late 2006, the Ferrari documents were not procured until 3 or 4 months into 2007. Furthermore the 2007 McLaren and all the supporting design information was reviewed by the FIA and no evidence of any Ferrari technology was found on it.

I daresay you have absolutely no understanding of motorsports and are resorting to uninformed conjecture.

 

I wonder if you could fix the fuel rule by having the teams file a fuel pit plan with race control and then allow a refuel without penalty if it is your filed fuel lap??? Then allow the paln to be updated within 1 lap of completing a stop. Maybe?

 

You have to stop with this stuff Ted. Its like you are obsessed with making Massa look bad so that Ferrari will take on your big mouthed boy Alonso. It aint happening. For some reason I cant help but notice and I dont know what it is but this all goes back to Senna never driving for Ferrari. You seem to equate Alonso and Senna as very much alike and you really want to see Alonso in the red car come hell or high water. By the way if it wasnt for Massa carrying the load and scoring 33 points in the first 5 races last year then Ferrari would have been way out of the WCC. Never mind what the race stewards did in one race..things happen. We all know (except a few in here) that even though the McCheater team may have gotten the Ferrari docs in March that they had still made great strides shortly after that and it was mostly with the help of Delarosa and not Alonso. Delarosa was the one testing the Ferrari knowledge and passing it on to his buddy Alonso. Again going back to 2005 and 2006 anyone can see that the tire rule is what gave Alonso and Renault the wins. BrideSTONES were exactly that, stones. If that tire rule was not brought in (and everyone knows its purpose was to slow the F-cars) then Ferrari would have run away with more than 10 wins easily in 05. They struggled to addapt their car to work with the harder compound and were nowhere near and then what happened? The rule was squashed and Ferrari had to start all over in 2006 and get back to where they were in 2004. You could see this by the way they were coming on strong in the second half of the season. After Canada Alonso only won 1 measly race while MS won 5 and Massa won 2. Anyone except the most ardent Alonso fanatic can see that he was gifted his 2 WDC and for him to keep shooting his mouth of is just incredible. Like I said before Alonso will never ever drive a Ferrari. He is not as good as many make him out to be.
BTW in 2005 Reubens finished a distant 8th in the WDC, 5 position behind MS and for heavens sake he even finished behind Schumi II

 

I don't necessarily agree with all of Ted's opinions or posts, but I respect his thoughts because they are concise and accurate. I don't find his posts angry at all, just to the point and direct. In fact, I have a bet with Ted, because of a difference of opinion over Massa. My opinion is in the middle about Massa, but I don't believe him to be as bad as Ted projects him despite the facts when comparing him to Rubens. The Ferrari was better and more dominating back then. But, to state that Massa is one of the best drivers in the world is a reach. I can name 10 to 15 drivers that I feel are better than Massa on any day. The fact is Massa has moments of brain lapses that occur too often. It's the ole saying, we all make mistakes, it's just how many. I think Massa is a decent #2 driver, but there are better out there...and there are worse out there.

Whether you like him or not, Alonso is in fact one of the best drivers in the World and Massa couldn't even wear his jock strap. Proof of Alonso's quality is in his two WDCs. That should say enough. Alonso's problem now is with the anemic Renault. I don't like Kyle Bush either, but there is probably no better driver in Nascar with such quality car control skills as him.
Just my .02

 

The ignore button is your friend sometimes

 

I also have a bet with Ted and for the same reasons. I have to disagree with Alonso being one of the best drivers in the world...yet. He may have 2 WDC but they are not worth much to those that saw what really went on with the tire rule. In 2004 Ferrari won 15 races! In 2005 none(well 1 if you can count that fiasco) In 2006 Ferrari won 9 races and most of them was when they readapted to the old tire rule in the second half of the season. Alonso has not yet proven himself in many peoples eyes and as long as he shoots himself in the foot by talking down his team then he will never reach those lofty heights of the best drivers in F1.

 

Who do you think would win on a fist fight? Massa Vs Alonso?

 

Alonso with that big head is easier to hit

 

What happened in March 2007 was that the Ferrari flexible floor was ruled illegal and Ferrari had to make it rigid and re-engineer around that. Ferrari slowed down, McLaren didn't make a dramatic leap forward.

Uh... EVERY team had to change to the full race distance tires for 2005. EVERY team had to adapt to them. Yes, Ferrari did a poorer job of adapting than the others, so they didn't win the title. Boo hoo, that's racing! Actually, it was more like Bridgestone did a poorer job of building a full race distance tire than Michelin. Some seasons BS was better, some seasons Michelin was better.

EVERY team had to re-adapt to sprint tires for 2006 to get back to where they were in 2004. It was hardly Ferrari alone that had issues! If you think Alonso was "gifted" the WDC, then apparently you weren't paying attention at the Monza 2006 race when the stewards were bought and paid for by Ferrari, penalizing Alonso because Massa was 300 meters behind him and Massa and Todt whined that Alonso slowed Massa's lap. How pathetic! You apparently also missed entirely the mass damper saga, when the Renault was severely disadvantaged by a re-interpretation of a device that had been ruled fully legal a year before by the FIA and used with full knowledge of the FIA for a year. If the FIA intended to gift a championship to Alonso, then they had a strange way of showing it... most people would suggest both those decisions were blatantly intended to give Ferrari an advantage.

 

i think i rather move to Ferrari and be a number 2 then be no 1 elsewhere. since Rubens moved from Ferrari, what did he achieve? i can't help but think, he would have been WDC last year had he partnered Kimi.

 

If Alonso is not as good as his WDCs, then...
Why was it that his teamate Fisichelli rarely could match Alonso's qualifying, speeds and finishes?
Did you observe the several rain races in 2005 where Alonso demonstrated his unmatched car control skills?
Why is it that he is the youngest F1 driver of all time to win a WDC?
And he secured back to back WDCs, correct?
Why was he able to secure his second consecutive WDC with arguably the second best car on the grid in 2006?
Why is it that Hami is struggling with the McLaren since Alonso left?
Let's say all of Alonso's successes were a result of a superior tire as you state. He was still able to produce and deliver WDCs and WCCs without making mistakes.
Whether you like the man or not, you have got give credit where credit is due.

 

+1

in modern times, Fred is there with Schumi in terms of most complete driver.

 

I have never equated Alonso to Senna. Senna is the greatest driver who ever lived, Alonso is an extremely talented WDC but not in Senna's league. If there is any driver in F1 today that I see as Senna's successor, it is Hamilton.

Actually, McLaren was showing tremendous potential and speed in pre-season testing well before they got teh Ferrari documents. Furthermore there were very distinct differences between the two cars, notably wheelbase, that made set-up knowledge irrelevant. If you recall, the two teams were competitive on very different tracks. Personally I think there is a lot to that whole sordid affair that we will never know (why Coughlan's wife was copying the documents at a copy shop instead of just copying them at McLaren's office, for one).

If there is any car that would have benefitted from the info, it is the 2008 McLaren, not last year's car. Given that the team has historically bounced back from poor seasons, McLaren finding speed in 2007 after their abysmal 2006 should not come as a surprise to anyone, especially having the benefit of Alonso's development skills and Hamilton's outright speed.

As you yourself point out earlier in your post, Ferrari was handicapped by inferior tires in 2005.

 

I was referring to a full season, anything can happen in an individual race. I think Ide finished ahead of Schumacher at least once, I would scarcely argue that Ide is a better driver...

 

He is also the youngest driver ever to win a GP.

 

It surprises me that you would group Hamilon in with Senna as Hamilton has made a ton of driving errors in his last 6 races.

Yes there were differences between the Ferrari and McClaren but it does not take too long to make even major changes at the factory. Anything they picked up in March could easily have been implemented at the factory by mid April. You must also remember that Ferraris biggest advantage was being able to outbrake McLaren in every corner and it was well known that they had implemented Ferraris braking system and that alone took about 4 to 5/10s a lap out of the Ferrari advantage.

Yes RB had the disadvantage of the tires but please so did MS so why did Rubens finish so far behind MS. Massa has yet to perform that poorly in comparison to Kimi.

 

I think Hamilton has a long way to go before his name can be mentioned in the same breath as Senna's.

 

+1, right now he doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with the Alonsos and Raikkonens.

 

True but he shows a great deal of pure, raw talent...moreso than anyone else on the grid, including Alonso and Kimi. My guess is that in 5 years time Hamilton will be as dominating as either Senna or Schumacher. He is the next rgeat driver of his generation.

From what I read, McLaren had pursued a similar brake concept in 2000 ubsuccessfully. After reviewing the Ferrari info, it allowed them to return to their concept and come up with a working solution. I don't recall the specifics but I believe that McLaren uses a hydraulic solution whereas Ferrari employs a mechanical one. Regardless, they did not exactly duplicate the system, they refocused their engineering. It is still a misuse of the information but it is not exactly the exact same braking system either.

Regardless, they certainly seem to have lost their edge against Ferrari this season.

I think that probably say more about Kimi than it does Rubens

 

And before people start going on about how poor 4th is; a little reminder:

2007 (Post Spanish GP):
01 Lewis Hamilton 30
02 Fernando Alonso 28
03 Felipe Massa 27
04 Kimi Raikkonen 22
05 Nick Heidfeld 15
06 Robert Kubica 8
07 Giancarlo Fisichella 8

 

He's Shumi's mirror image. For good or bad.

 

David, one thing Michael never did was criticize his team in public, he always said we have work to do, and that is why his team loved him from Benetton to Ferrari. If anything, Alonso reminds me of Prost, from his driving style to his criticism of Renault, McLaren, and later Ferrari.