Classiche Application Stories | Page 8 | FerrariChat

Classiche Application Stories

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by CornersWell, Apr 9, 2008.

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  1. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

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    #176 DM18, May 15, 2008
    I wonder if your comment should be higher pay grade at Maranello!
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #177 Napolis, May 15, 2008
    Perhaps there is a certain je ne sais quoi about The Historic Targa Florio, Mille Migilla, Tour Auto, Le Mans Classic,
    and of course The Goodwood Festival of Speed, and the Goodwood Revival that make them a tad more interesting?

    Ferrari's are fantastic but when you see them running with other great cars you realize just how fantastic they are. The sight of a 250 GTO having at it with a Ford GT, a Light Weight XKE, an Aston DB 4, and a Cobra Daytona Coupe is not something you soon forget.
     
  3. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Apr 20, 2004
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    #178 Ney, May 15, 2008
    The irony of this is that NO BBLM came out of the factory. The process of converting these cars from a road car to a racing car was farmed out to small garages in Modena.

    That may be and I would be interested to hear your reasoning. I have heard of several owners who have participated in the Challenge that are very unhappy with the Classiche program. While there may be other reasons, I can't help but think that their feelings as to the heavy handedness of the certification program has a good bit to do with owners leaving the Challenge.
     
  4. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    #179 CornersWell, May 15, 2008
    Much as Michelotto was contracted to handle early production of the 333SPs, 360N-GTs, and F40GTs/LMs (or whichever iteration). So far, btw, to the best of my knowledge all 333SPs are certifiable. Only the factory-built N-GTs are. The Michelotto-built N-GTs are not certifiable. The Michelotto-built F40 GTs are not, either. Michelotto was contracted by the factory to construct most (I assume) of the cars in question. So, why some, but not others? The BBLMs should fall under the "built for the factory" exemption, I would guess.

    From personal experience and relationships, I know that many owners feel like their wallets have been invaded by FNA. When convenient for them, FNA/SpA have altered the rules so as to benefit themselves financially at the expense of the owners. I realize it's a "pay-to-play" sport, but the honest truth is that no matter how wealthy one is, everyone looks at the bills and sees what they're being charged. And, what they're being charged for.

    All of this has to be measured against some metric, of course. So, I'll use dollar per lap. Without having done any calculations recently, I'm still confident in saying that the Historic Challenge is grossly more expensive on a per lap basis than other series are. HSR and VSRA, for example are far less pricey. As well, they don't bundle everything up the way FNA does. So, if you're a Historic Challenge driver, you must pay for a Grand Am hard card for each and every crew guy you bring. You pay for the non-optional catering, so you might as well eat it. You pay for the Classiche certification. You must enter X number of events at so many entry fee $ per event (although you do get a nifty OMP driver suit). You pay, you pay, you pay.

    Now, we all know that Ferraris are expensive to own and operate, but most don't know from experience that they're exponentially more expensive to race. Part supply and assistance? Nil. You're left to your own devices to come up with the bits and pieces you break. Honestly, most owners don't need the hassle. And, with the silliness of the Classiche programme, you're now paying to be told that you'll have to spend X to make the car legal. Which, btw, SpA will be happy to sell you at 10x the price of comparable (or even better) product, if and when they get around to making a batch of what you need. Owners are paying for the privilege of being abused. Frankly, in their business lives, I don't think these Gentlemen (and Lady) would put up with that for very long. They've put up with it for a relatively long period, so just maybe they're starting to see that there are other options available to them that don't require them to sell the 250LM for another season's racing!

    And, let's also be candid. The economy isn't great. There are certainly owners who are not affected one iota by this fact. However, there are some that are. Time to tighten the belts a little, possibly? Not suggesting that I know about anyone's financial state, but even if you're worth $20-30M, a $500K annual racing budget isn't a throwaway.

    CW
     
  5. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #180 Napolis, May 15, 2008
    As an aside 6 Days and nights of the Historic Targa Florio cost 3200 E for one car/ two people all food/hotels/luggage transfer/wine/Police escort/full track day/Parties/etc.

    It's not a race but a 800 mile road rally and all vintage cars from 1905 to 1975 and beyond in some cases are more than welcome.

    Compared to what CW talks about above it seems like a bargain.

    Heck one could do the Targa Florio/Mille Migilla/Goodwood FOS/Classic Le Mans/ Tour Auto/ and The Goodwood revival for MUCH less that 500K. (FOS and Le Mans Classic are on the same weekend this year but you get the point)
     
  6. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    #181 CornersWell, May 15, 2008
    By way of comparison, current per event entry fee is approximately $1500 per weekend, IIRC, for Historic Challenge. For the Historics, this is basically 6 30-minute practice sessions, 1 qualifying session and 2 races. Each race is approximately 20 minutes. Factor in your transport for yourself, vehicle(s) and crew, lodging, support, consumables and pre- and post-race inspection and maintenance and you're well over $15K per weekend. More likely around $20K per car. So, assuming you make each and every session from flag to flag, you're paying $20K for roughly 4 hours of track time. Depending on track (assume a 2 min/lap time), you're getting 120 laps at a rate of ~$166/lap (if I've done my arithmetic correctly, anyway). And, assume that you want to be competitive as opposed to just driving around in circles mid-pack. That requires upgrades. Not all of which are purely go-fast gadgets.

    Assume you're driving at a reasonably fast clip. You're now stressing the car's weakest points. With modern tires, that means the suspension should be upgraded. Requires machining time by a Wallace, Hadjuk or someone equivalent. Then, once you've fixed that, you need to upgrade the old shocks. Penske 3-way adjustables are $3K each. Then, once you've got that sorted out, you can go faster so the motor needs massaging up a bit. But, of course, you don't want to alter the original motor, so you have to find a spare to work with if there are any. Then, the tranny has to be uprated to withstand the new bhp rating. Then other things start to snap so it's back to the machine shop for titanium. But, now you're going really fast, so the brakes start to look a little soft. Then it gets into weight savings. Then, it's to the wind tunnel to tweak the aero package. You get the point. It's never-ending. And, that's not assuming that you have an off or break something, which is a good bet. Also, certain safety upgrades are prudent if not mandatory. Now, after all that, how can one possibly pass the Classiche certification, which all Historic Challenge cars are supposed to have?

    Re-reading this, btw, I can't help but think this is F1 on a smaller scale!

    CW
     
  7. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #182 PSk, May 15, 2008
    And that is where some involved in historic racing piss me off completely.

    The CAR guys, yes the fncken CAR is the centre of attention at an historic meeting. Nobody gives a flying fnck if you win or come last, they want to watch you drift the car, and hear the sounds. Yeah its good to watch a bit of a battle, but not if the cars corner on rails like modern cars. So leave the fncken car alone and stop worrying about looking like Michael Schumacher and have some fun in an OLD race car that has already proven itself. Stop worrying about modern shocks, more hp, etc. ...!

    If you cannot understand this and drive around an old cars handling qualities and appreciate old race cars for being old race cars ... please and I mean this seriously, please just go and leave the historic racing scene completely. Everybody will thank you for leaving.
    Pete
    ps: I'm sure CW is just echoing what currently unfortunately happens and does not agree.
     
  8. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    #183 CornersWell, May 15, 2008
    I certainly understand and am sympathetic to the desecration problem. However, there are always additional considerations. Safety items. Worn out parts need to be replaced. Old stock parts are often difficult, if not impossible, to obtain. Some owners choose to affix new body panels pulled from the original molds in order to preserve the originals and protect them from damage. I think, for the most part, virtually all the cars that I am aware of can be returned to stock configuration with little fuss. Most owners retain the original bits. So, it's not exactly as if the cars are permanently ruined. They can always be downgraded, but your point is not lost on me. I seriously doubt that Ron Dennis or Jean Todt is scouting anyone at a HSR event.

    OTOH, if someone's going to spend boatloads of money, and they're a competitive personality (as many successful people often are), then they want to win. And, if it's the difference between spending a little bit more to get the advantage, then they'll do it. And, while you're right that the car is the star, the truth is that owners don't spend crazy amounts of money so everyone else can see their car. While I can't claim to know what they think, I would assume that they do it so they can enjoy the experience of being on track. And, if winning on track is what they want to do and how they want to spend their money, then I guess it's alright by me. Besides, it's kind of the human condition to strive to improve. Hopefully, the priceless history isn't lost in some way in the process.

    CW
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    #184 PSk, May 15, 2008
    Agree and happy with these comments

    The joy of driving something old is that it drives like an old car. Now note I am not meaning it is unmaintained, etc. but that it drives like it would have when new.

    What is the point of improving say a 250LM so that it drives like a F430 Challenge? ... I cannot think of any myself other than it would be faster, but you have just ruined the experience of enjoying a 250LM as a 250LM. Just buy the F430 ...

    IMO there is no place for competitive spirits in historic racing. There are plenty of modern race series that need more drivers ... :)
    Pete
     
  10. Dave 456

    Dave 456 Formula 3

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    #185 Dave 456, May 15, 2008
     
  11. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

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    #186 DM18, May 16, 2008
    Scary. I will stick with Formula Renault!
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #187 Napolis, May 16, 2008

    Makes sense but do think about joining us on the Historic Targa once with any of your red beauties. Your wife will enjoy it as mine does and driving a Ferrari through the 1000 kms and 9000 turns of this rally is something you will remember for a long, long, time.

    Cheers!
     
  13. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

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    #188 DM18, May 16, 2008
    Would love to. What would you recommend me to use? Daytona? Maybe I should just buy a car in Europe and leave it there for the event? My wife would love the event. She is a weird Chinese who must have been Italian in her previous life
     
  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #189 Napolis, May 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This will give you a taste of the event:

    http://www.classicdriver.com/uk/magazine/3700.asp?id=13423

    As the roads are very twisty sometimes smaller is better but several Daytona's run and have all had a great time. I'm a member of the founding and sanctioning club so what ever you want won't be a problem. The event runs in the first week of June every year.
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  15. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

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    #190 CornersWell, May 16, 2008
    I think I'd enjoy something like that. The problem is that the entry cost of the hardware has gone ballistic! $6MM for a 250LM? $3.5MM for a SWB? $600K for a Lusso? Even Daytonas have skyrocketed. Ok, maybe I don't have to have a "classic" or "important" car to do it, but I think that's part of the fun itself. Driving a Stradale on something like this would be fun, but it wouldn't be the same.

    CW
     
  16. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #191 Napolis, May 16, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is a very inclusive event and everyone has a great time.
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  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #192 VIZSLA, May 16, 2008
    Vintage period sheep?
     
  18. Doug Nye

    Doug Nye Formula Junior
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    #193 Doug Nye, May 16, 2008
    Fellers - having 'done' the Targa in period I would absolutely reinforce Jim's recommendation of the experience.

    When it comes to rally or tour-type events upon which one can simply immerse oneself in the joy of driving on magnificent roads in stunning countryside - and amongst an enthusiastic English-speaking population - I would also recommend anyone interested to try 'Classic Adelaide' - the great South Australian four-day event.

    We have run Ferraris in the Classic Adelaide for the past ten years - I wrote about the experience recently in an issue of 'Octane' magazine - and it is an event which caters for any level of commitment you care to apply - full competition, balls to the wall, red of tooth and claw - down to straightforward touring, enjoying the tea and lunch breaks, have a nice day, splendid eateries in the city of Adelaide come evening, decent hotel etc etc. Every year we have returned home having loved it, closed public roads through wonderful countryside, drive as hard or as gently as you like, and amongst South Australians who love to see the Ferraris there.

    Over the years we have run 275GTB/C, 250GT California hairdresser's posing platform, 250GTO, 250GT SWB...oh yes, and for 2 1/2 days a Lotus-Cortina after one of the V12s had a bad-batch brand-new valve give trouble.

    The website address is <http://www.classicadelaide.com.au/ca08/index.asp>

    The core of the event is described by the organisers as follows:

    The Classic Adelaide is actually four events in one. The Competition section is an international standard 'special stage' rally spanning four days, preceded by a field-seeding Prologue, with the classic rally cars and drivers racing the clock on almost 35 special stages on closed roads, with timing to the second.

    The Competition incorporates three separate contests including Historic, for vehicles up to 1947, Classic for vehicles built between 1948 and 1971 and Late Classic for vehicles built between 1972 and 1990.

    The Regularity category requires significant skill by the crew to enable them to meet the average speed/s specified by the organisers for a given test, with timing being carried out to the second. The vehicles will be categorised into Classic (up to 1971), Late Classic (1972 to 1990) and Modern (from 1991). Special awards will be made to crews who consistently achieve meeting the test average speeds.

    The Classic Tour provides enthusiasts, including those with special and restored sporting vehicles, the opportunity to experience the same closed road Classic Adelaide course at posted speed limits, travelling in small convoys led by experienced drivers.

    The rally is conducted over a number of special stages utilising sealed public roads. The event will cover a total distance of approximately 1000 kilometres, including transport stages, over a duration of five days. The event includes 34 special stages, the total length being around 250 kilometres.

    These special stages are conducted over roads temporarily closed to the public, although spectators are permitted in designated areas. Competing cars pass through the special stages at thirty second time intervals. When travelling from one special stage to another (referred to as being in a transport stage) competitors are required to observe all road traffic rules and behave at all times as would a normal road user.

    There are several major activities embedded in the Rally, all of which enhance the popularity of the event. On the Sunday prior to the commencement of the Rally a display of classic vehicles, together with vehicles entered in the event, is staged in Victoria Square. This display is free to the public and provides an opportunity to view valuable historic vehicles, as well as interacting with Rally competitors,

    After the completion of the second day of the Rally a street party ( in reality a wine and food festival) will again be held in Gouger Street, adjacent to the colourful Central Market. This traditional Friday evening function adds value to the event by including the Adelaide community and the event and last year attracted approximately 30,000 people.

    The participation of motorsport identities including Stefan Johansson, Murray Walker, Sir Jack Brabham and Stirling Moss in the Classic Adelaide Rally confirms the status of this international motoring event.

    A further endorsement of the Rally have been decisions by Mercedes Benz and Porsche companies in Germany to enter in all Classic Adelaide Rallies conducted to date, with rare and priceless vehicles chosen from their respective private corporate collections/museums.

    In making their journey to the starting line of the Classic Adelaide Rally many of these vehicles have travelled out of Europe for the first and probably only time. The 2005 Classic Adelaide was an officially sanctioned event by Ferrari Maranello.

    All entries in Category S, Competition, Thoroughbred Touring, Regularity, and the Classic Tour are by 'invitation' to ensure consistency with the Classic Adelaide's mission to remain one of the world's great rallies.

    Highly recommended. Organisation can be variably efficient, but over the years we give them four and a half stars - the event as such six. To me it's simply the world's best.

    DCN
     
  19. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #194 VIZSLA, May 16, 2008
    Recent issue? Its not out in the States yet. Looking forward to it though.
     
  20. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

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    #195 DM18, May 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Jim and Doug, many thanks friends for such interesting ideas. Fchat is the greatest - this is exactly why I am a member to get advice from much more experienced friends. I am in NYC now on business and sitting in my hotel looking at these websites has really got me thinking.

    My Daytona is not the ideal weapon - it is too big and heavy - I won't enjoy driving it and that is the sole reason I want to do these events.

    I have a 348 Challenge race car. I bought it for fun quite a few years ago and for a silly reason - it was the 1994 UK champion and was campaigned my Maranello Concessionaires - that means I can actually use the Robin's Egg blue stripe - the only car in my budget that is actually entitled to fly the colours. It appears on the history of Maranello poster with the greats over the years and that alone appealed to me massively. It of course has a roll cage, big brakes, 355 fantastic suspension, big fuel tank in the front boot and is completely striped out. Looks like the car is too young for Adelaide - barely. Picture of the car during it's winning season in 1994 and at the track in China. What do you think of this car as a potential weapon for the events?

    Any other ideas? I am open to buying a dedicated Ferrari for these events to use like crazy. No Classiche certification needed - I want a usable fun car!!!
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  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #196 Napolis, May 17, 2008
    Very Cool! For the Historic Targa the car has to be road registered. Does this one have a plate of any kind? The cut off is mid 70ies but "Special" cars can get "Special" permission. If you can get a plate for this one and you want to try it let me know and I will see what I can do.

    http://www.girodisicilia.it/pagina.aspx?id=18
     
  22. DM18

    DM18 F1 Rookie

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    #197 DM18, May 17, 2008
    No plate that i know of. 348 is not registered in HK. May have been registered at some point in the UK but that would have been years ago. Car lives at the race track in China now but I am not using it much as I prefer my formula car.

    Does the road registration have to be current or can it be expired?

    Points back to my Daytona as it is registered in Hong Kong. Really don't think it is the right weapon.

    Maybe i should look for a mid-70's road registered Ferrari 3xx in Hong Kong???
     
  23. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #198 Napolis, May 18, 2008
    As this event and most like it are on public roads cars have to be road registered and insured for that use. One year a guy did it in an 288 and he had a great time.
     
  24. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    #199 dretceterini, May 18, 2008
    If someone wants to go on the cheap, I know of a Fiat 850 racer (basically a spider with fixed hardtop; 1500 only made) with period Astech speed equipment for sale at under $20,000. Some of these cars did race "in period"...
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #200 Napolis, May 18, 2008
    There you go. What year is that one? Are mods Arbarth?
     
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