Perhaps, we don´t know, but a genuine #2 driver is not the same as a crap driver You people are too hung up on the concept of #1 and # 2 drivers. That only works when one driver is without doubt ahead of the other guy and that doesn´t happen all that often. Senna/Nakajima comes to mind and indeed Schumacher/Barrichello and/or Irvine. I am pretty sure Ferrari has both drivers in for the driverschampionship. Massa isn´t hired to help Kimi and Kimi isn´t hired to help Massa. Only when one of them is mathematically out of contention, he will turn to helping to other. And on that note, Massa deserves a WDC just as much as any other driver that has collected the most points once the final race of the season is finished.
Going back to my original post: Kimi Raikkonen won 6 GPs in 2007. Massa 3. If we count what happened in Brazil we have 5 for the Iceman and 4 for Massa. Quite similar I think. I don´t want to enter the discussion about who is better, Raikkonen or Massa. I personally think that Raikkonen is more regular and will have the upper hand in the end, but I also think that Massa is close enough to Raikkonen to have a chance of fighting for the champiosnhip. That never happened with Irvine, Barrichello or Coulthard. Oh, and by the way: David Coulthard was the guy who always said before the season started that thing of "this is my year", so he didn´t want to be a number 2 either.
No driver should WANT to be a #2, but Coulthard was, and did on occasion beat his team mate. You guys act like Massa isn't a #2 driver because he SOMETIMES beats his team mate. Let me back up my statement by saying that Massa is in very good standing right now in large part by Kimi's misfortune in Canada, France, and Silverstone. Let's assume Lewis didn't decide to cock up on the brake pedal... Kimi was OBVIOUSLY ahead of him. 1st place, maybe 2nd. Massa would then have finished 7th. France was OBVIOUSLY supposed to be 1, 2 with Kimi running away with it until good ol' Italian engineering caught up with him. GBR lets assume Ferrari didn't cock up the tire choice and Kimi finished 2nd, though I feel his pace at that point could have got him past Lewis.... Those are 3 races that could have easily or likely been won by Kimi. He's got the last 6 races in a row fastest lap, and you're saying that he's not Ferrari's #1 driver? What number is on the nose of his car? Don't get on the whole Massa gifted the Title race to Kimi BS. He was out of title contention, and honestly judging by his move at the start of the race almost running Kimi off the road, I don't know how gifting Massa felt like being. He fought tooth and nail to the point where even the commentators were basically saying that if Kimi passes Massa by clicking off fast laps during Massa's stop, that will be the a. only way to win the race, and b. it would be DESERVEDLY so. The way I saw it, Kimi won himself that race, and in doing so, saved Ferrari a lot of explaining of why they would have to call Massa into the pits for some extra fuel late in the race to allow Kimi past. Its like... you knew Kimi was going to beat Massa that race, either on his own, or from the team. Massa had nothing to do with any "gift".
He has the #1 on the car because he took the title last season. As simple as that. If he was the contractual #1 driver and Massa the contractual #2 driver, then Massa would be contractually bound to sacrifice his championship fight for Kimi´s fight for the title. That isn´t the case. Obviously in the post-Schumacher era, there is no such driver / team relation at Ferrari. Both drivers are treated equal and that is because why Massa isn´t the # driver, nor does he have to act like one. His team status is exactly the same as Kimi´s. This only changes when or if Massa is mathematically out the championship and Kimi is not. Exactly the same thing that happened last year.
My point being that Kimi holds a #1 status within the team because of his ability, no contract to delegate this is needed. I do agree they both get equal equipment and all, but its pretty apparent that the team gives slightly preferential treatment to Kimi. Hence he is the leader, or #1 driver. He gets choice of pit strategy first. He gets the perks. This whole thing is pointless, we now have 3 threads on FChat that are all the same thing. Massa sucks/doesn't suck. Why do these things get created? It seems to me like Ferrari's drivers aren't good pals, and they don't really have any sort of "bond". Kimi shows up for his job. Massa shows up for his job. Maybe its my extreme bias (I'll admit it) but I feel like there is jealousy from Massa. He's been at Ferrari longer but yet they seem to bend over for Kimi. I just think that Massa has some sort of resentment. I couldn't believe how happy he was to win France. It seemed really disrespectful to both Kimi and the team that he acted like HE put in the dominant performance to beat everyone. He must have been crying in his car watching Kimi fade away into the distance (and out qualify him) only to burst into happiness at his misfortune.... yeah that's it. He seemed to be really delighted with Kimi's misfortune. Just seems real slimy to me. A little tangent, but it shows some honest talk about WHY i don't prefer Massa as a driver. Oh yeah, then there is that whole asses over elbows way of controlling oversteer that he has.
To me it is not at all apparent that Kimi´s gets preferential treatment and the team seem to execute their treatment according to the circumstances in the race.
(Surprisingly for me) Massa beats Kimi MANY times. Not most of the times, but quite often. Irvine or Rubinho beated their teammate once or twice a year. Let´s go back to 2007. A few questions: should be Kimi have been considered a number two driver because of his mediocre first half of the season? Or because he was behind Massa after the Nurburgring? Or because he had the #6 in the nose of his car while Massa had #5? Fortunately: NOT!!! I disagree on this. IIRC, Massa was faster all the weekend, was faster in the first stint despite being heavier, pitted later after his first stint, and pitted much earlier after the second stint... Strange, not common, not logical... But anyway, neither of us have any solid evidence about this, so it´s not debateable. Just one final comment: the Massa fans like to say that he´s such a great guy for letting Kimi pass and win the champiosnhip... Well, he would be a son of a b*itch if he didn´t that, wouldn´t he?
Exactly. It's not "Massa bashing" to say he's not on the same racing level as Kimi, it's just the way it is. Massa's points standing are in large part due to Kimi's misfortune in those races, not due to Massa's "superb' racecraft.
Which is strange seeing as he is Brazilian, and Senna was bloody quick in the wet. Massa is quick but too inconsistent to be World Champion IMHO.
That's not at all apparent to me -- Ferrari appears to have a complex formula for giving the drivers choice of pit strategy that I haven't quite grokked yet -- It appears to be some combination of points leadership and qualifying performance. Kimi has #1 on his car because he was WDC last year. Last year, Massa had the red camera on his car, and Kimi had the yellow one. It was pretty apparent to me that there wasn't a "#1" driver at Ferrari until after Monza. I don't know why it bothers people so much that there isn't a designated "root for this one" (heir apparent?) driver at Ferrari. Isn't it more entertaining this way? The competition between the Ferrari drivers, I suspect, is much of the reason for all the Massa bashing, among those who (apparently) can only appreciate one driver at a time. Phil is quick ... and makes mistakes. Kimi is quick ... and he makes mistakes, too. Nobody has Schumi's consistency. (For the US fans, go back and look at Fuji again: some of the spins the Speed announcers attributed to Massa had a white and blue helmet in the car. The announcers make mistakes, too.) This is F1 racing. In a series rules over by Mad Max, nothing is all *that* apparent.
Really? Then why does he have the same amount of points as Kimi and Lewis. Oh maybe they are not as good in the dry? So then Kimi and Lewis would do very bad at Nascar.
Can I enjoy Massa in a Ferrari without being actually a particular fan? Or is it really that black and white? Massa-haters have the tendency to call Massa a loser just because he is sometimes one of the 19 drivers that didn't win, so the answer is probably yes. I have said it before and I say it again, it is pathetic and utterly uninformed.
So what you are saying is that a Ferrari fan supports the team no matter who is driving? OK. Fine. I can understand that. Then what do you say about all the fair-weather fans who have sworn to no longer support the team if they sign Alonso? What about them? Or the fair-weather fans that were calling for Kimi's head 4 races into last season? What about them?
No, that is not what I am saying at all. I say it is BS to suggest Massa is a bad driver. He isn't. He isn't perfect and he probably will never land the status of legendary drivers such as Schumacher, Senna, Lauda, Moss et all, but he wins races and they are not all lucky wins, he brings in the points. In other words, he gets the job done and so far he is exactly has useful to the team as Kimi is. That alone earnes him more respect them some of us are giving him. What about them? You either support the team or you don't, no matter who is driving. I for one would welcome Alonso since to me he still is the best driver on the grid, but thats just me. I am not at all against criticism. I critizise the drivers all the time. That is my prerogative as a armchair enthusiast. I was not pleased with Massa two weeks ago. To put it mildly that is. And I am happy to entertain the suggestion that he is a rubbish driver in general, once backed up by decent arguments. But there are none.
Most of us who have criticized Massa do so not because we think he is a "bad" driver, we just question whether he is good enough to warrant a seat with Ferrari. Any guy in F1 is an incredible driver by most standards but "most" standards is not the relevant metric, talent relative to other current F1 drivers is. I, for one, can't help but think that Massa is not doing any more in the car than Rubens or Irvine did before him. However he has made mistakes that have cost the team valuable WCC points. My feeling (shared by quite a few others) are that there are other drivers on the current F1 grid who would be better candidates for that seat. That doesn't make us anti-Ferrari, despite what the more simple-minded sycophants might say.
Massa seems to be willing to relegate himself to #2. Most of the others you are thinking about probably wouldn't...
