Chassis 1C/10S Updated Information

But that chassis already has the extra stiffeners in the X. Wasn't the consensus that the earlier ones than that were the 'open' X style chassis like 01C?

I am getting very confused here. Can someone post an assumed chronological production sequence of all these cars?

 

Consensus? Not for me please...
After most what I wrote in this thread - and also the other one - over frame configurations constantly had been neglected, I decided not to repeat myself over and over again.
One has to take into consideration that the 166 SC was a competition car, but the 166 Sport a road car. Which implements logics for different frames.

 

What would the WB of 001S be?

 

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Interesting. Are there any other chassis "missing" like 001S? The crossbar on 1C/10S does look like 003S. Do you think it could be 001S somehow still surviving with various other parts attached? Still nothing on 10S? Anyone????

 

I think we are all a bit confused, as there is so many things out there that seem to contradict one another.

I don't think anyone at this point is certain which came first. Based on the Colombo drawings and the Gilco drawings, it would appear that the earlier cars had just the X, like on 01C/010I, and the later cars had the extra stiffiners, but there is no proof of this. Ferrari Classiche has certified the car, but I haven't seen enough documentation, nor have any idea what Ferrari has that no one has seen.

Personally, I don't think any cars were completed to the Colombo 1945 design, but a chassis or part of one may have. It has a longer w/b than anyone has seen, at over 2500mm.

I would tend to believe the earliest cars had a 2420 w/b, regardless of what they are stamped, and the later cars 2250.....but I have no absolute proof of this.

I would REALLY like to see any documents related to 01C/010I has that "convinced" them to certify the car.

 

Hi

Having considered this thread in all of its parts. How about this for a theory. There might have been a 1S. Who actually decided that the first three cars were 01C, 02C & 002C. When was this decided ?. Could it have been in the 1950's/ 1960's Ferrari historians, the Merritts etc. came up with this as "the most likely scenario". And since it has been modified but essentially reprinted as needed. And no-one has ever had the resources or the ability to alter the status quo. As such who first allocated/ claimed these numbers as the first three f-cars and on what information did they base their claims on.
Here in 2008 on F-chat we have the chance to perhaps get to the bottom of this. It might be that we are chasing red herrings and will eventually come to the point where all roads lead to dead ends, and obviously none of us have access to Ferrari's records. BUT it would be interesting to know if any of the Ferrari authorities from the 1950's/ 1960's are still alive and if they remember where they got the information that they based claims regarding the early cars on.

Cheers and thanx Jawsalfa for allowing us to follow this interesting path.

Tim

 

I had suggested that it could be what we know as 001S,the Inter Auto/Troubetzkoy,has reason of the early brakes and the unusual Borrani Cabo Sport wheels.My scenario is "001S" would be the fourth Ferrari build (11/47?), probably by recycling one of three precedent cars.

 

Hi

Yes you did and you may be right but why do you think 001S was built before 004C?

Best

 

I would expect that to be a check that cleared.

 

Isn't 003S missing?
Nathan

 

My understanding is:during the 1947 season,Ferrari use three cars, sell a car (new or not,I suppose not),around November to Inter Auto/Troubetskoy,and build his new cars for the 1948 season during the winter.I have no éléments about the chassis numbers for that period,I dont know when and where they appear.Incidently,I believe that during the middle 50s,some factory cars had no allocate chassis number before their sale,maybe it was the same in 1947/48.
Sorry for my english.

 

I second that emotion

I have not contributed anything to this marvelous thread so far because I am no expert when it comes to the earliest of the cars. But I will say that I wouldn't put too much stock into what holy grail records the factory has that have not seen the light of day. Access to these records wasn't that difficult to achieve up until about 1985 or so. My father made several factory visits between 1961 and 1983 and got pretty much everything he wanted on the Mondials/Monzas (although even then, the dyno pages of the Assembly Data Sheets were redacted for most of the cars). I would think that folks interested in the earlier cars could have gotten copies of what they needed, especially if they were super polite to Brenda Verner and . . . IF THIS PAPERWORK EVEN EXISTED AT ALL!! Let's face it, the quality and consistency of the paperwork in the mid-fifties was poor/spotty at best; imagine what it must have been like in '47-'48 when the fledgling company was trying to eke out a few cars, not even sure if they were going to be around in a few months . . .

 

Kare,

Nice one...

Regards,

Art S.

 

There is both a Certificate of Origin and bill of sale for 002 but I take your point.

Best

 

Bryan
I'm not sure that you are entirely correct with your assumption. Attached is a photo of the file for a very early car (might be 010I but I'm not sure). Ferrari explained that in recent years they have collated and catalogued all of their historical documents to create a library of drawings, race results, test results and everything that they could find. In past years, although they had this information, it was scattered in different departments and offices and so not all of it was available. Hence the impression many had that the records were 'poor/spotty at best'. I'm not saying they have everything but they have more than most people know. It's just a pity that they won't let anyone see it!
Nathan
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There is this famous photo showing Igor Troubetskoy with 001S at a garage somewhere in Switzerland (or in France on the way from CH to Paris) which reportedly has been taken in December 1947. Therefore some people believe 001S was delivered as early as November 1947. This must be wrong, because 001S was road registered only on 10 Feb 1948 (at Milano on Bruno Sterzi).

004C was delivered to the Besanas on 17 March 1948.

 

You are right,I have one of this famous photo with indication 11/47 and a story around,
but in Ferrari automobili 1947-1953/Millanta,Zagari,Orsini:
"1948
14 febbraio
La Scuderia Inter col presidente Troubetzkoy,Sterzi,Zehender e meccanici,si trasferisce a Montlhéry per collaudare una 166 da poco ritirata a Maranello.
Due vetture analoghe sono già state consegnate ai fratelli Gabriele e Soave Besana,ardimentosi gentlemen milanesi ancora privi della necessaria esperienza per vetture di tale imegno. Gabrielle,o piu familiarmente Gaby,sta veleggiando verso l'America Latina col proposito di participare a corse locali.
In officina,intanto,c'é animazione attorno alla piccola linea di monaaggio della 166."
The place where the"famous photo"was taken seem sure:Salins les Bains (France).

 

4 days after the car was registered, that makes sense.
So another myth finally buried...

 

The Certificate of Origin was dated 4th Feb 1948. Yet more confirmation.
Nathan

 

It's interesting to note that 002's is dated December 30th 1947 not when the car was built as a 159 but when the car was converted to a 166I.

 

The c/o is some kind of title, so it's only required when a car is sold. It's also needed for first road registration afaik.

 

Cannot find the original thread about 10S where Bill Noon posted his photos. Any helping hand...?

 

I guess my point is that there was a (long) period of time where access to paperwork was pretty easy and I believe my father was able to get into more than one department. I'll also go so far as to say that the factory's records re: Mondials/Monzas were more organized when he left than they were before he got there! One thing was for sure; while access was available, you still weren't leaving with copies of anything unless you had an "invoice" approved by the old man. That said, dad only had access to files in Modena - if there was any paperwork in Maranello, he did not know about it and did not see it. He provided limited assistance as recently as 5 years ago in their collecting/collating effort, but that was a bit of a one-way street.

 

Bryan,
I, also, think that the records were more complete than some think. As an owner of a business that has been around for a while, records rarely get thrown out, merely reassigned to a different storage area. Enzo was not a novice at running a business. These were the final assemblies of what were very expensive and low number of production pieces. It does not, nor did it, take a large number of staff to keep track of such a low number of final products. My bet is that they have a lot more information than they are letting on.

George