Need Electrical help. Car Just Died Electrical System Completely DeadDead?

I pulled my gt4 out to go for a drive and the pushed out of the garage let the fuel pump run for a few and when I started to turn the key all electrical systems died at once door lights fuel pump etc? I have never seen this before and it was so sudden it was like it blew a fuse, but what could it be. I have a new battery clean connections and as far as I know the ground strap is tight. The car is in the driveway so any of you have any suggestions now is the time!

I checked the fuses and both boxes seem fine is there a main fuse? even the clock is dead and when I hooked up another battery same thing????

Perplexed!

Rob

 

is the key-on relay hot? I'd suspect the relays, or loss of ground through the cruddy ground switch.

 

The +12V power to run everything on your 308GT4 comes back from the stater solenoid on the large red wire going to the 4-way connector:

1. Do you, or don't you, have +12V at the 4-way connector relative to a metal chassis ground, and

2. Do you, or don't you, have +12V at the 4-way connector relative to the "-" battery terminal post on the battery (not the negative cable connector -- the actual male negative post coming out of the battery case)?

Is everything dead? You mentioned the door lights not working, but is "all the stuff that usually works with the key off" (e.g., headlights) also dead?

 

Just because the battery is new and the connections "look" clean don't trust it.

A battery cutoff switch is the first place to look. Then it's process of elimination.

 

All,

Here are some more clues. I was talking to Mike F. cause he helped me with some electrical stuff in the past and suggested the starter solenoid. As we were talking I went back to sit in the car and noticed the clock as on so I played with the key and it started right up. Anyway the car started and I went to run some errands. First 2 times the started right up but the third stop, turn the key and on the first stop the clock and door lights went dead. At this point I as pretty upset as I was downtown in a busy area so I opened the hood and played with my green knob ( battery disconnect) and when i opened the door the lights were on so I jumped in and turned and the starter barely engaged like their was barely enough current but go me home and in the garage. Now here is a mystery, my door vanity lights, clock and radio are always on even with the key out and on my last stop when the car would not start the clock worked with the key out but the radio would not when I turned the key to the first stop the clock died before I engaged the starter. Could the starter relay be bad and causing parts of the whole car to short out?

Steve to answer your question but I will check them, however not sure where the 4 way connector is.? I have never had any electrical gremlins with this car and other than removing and replacing the connectors to the window switch last week I have done nothing electrical. I am hoping it is a relay and not the starter!

That battery cut off switch seems pretty simple with one screwed knob, has anyone had a problem with one of them, however with the intermittent problem it seems that that is not the cause?

Rob

 

The "not working" isn't caused by "shorting out" (which would lead to a catastrophic fire/failure somewhere), but rather "loss of power or ground". If you didn't report the other (truly) bizarre behavior, I'd have said that your added cutoff switch was/is the trouble (and opening/closing a door can vibrate things enough for such gremlins to come and go). I believe the 4-way connector is behind the relay panel on the 308s, but I'm not 100% sure about that (it's essentially just a common heavy-duty connection point with 4 spade terminals where +12V is first branched to a few different places -- to things that work with the key off, to the ignition key, etc.), but if you can find it, and the problem recurs, it would still be a logical place to measure. Very unlikely that the trouble is starter or solenoid caused IMO (but you do have some mods) -- let us know what "Christine" does next

 

More weirdness, the 75 Owners manual shows a starter relay bottom right corner of the relay board (#Q) but the Workshop manual and the 76 parts book does not show one at all. On my car there is a plate above the relays that clearly says starter relay. However on my car there is none plugged in. Did they come up with another way to start it not using the relay only the starter? What would happen if if I plug one in?

Well I just check and there is no connectors for the slots for the starter relay however I might be on to something.

maybe Im going crazy but I never remember my seat belt light coming on, and even though the connector to the drivers side seat belt has a connector that is plugged in, it has never buzzed. Anyway by playing with the key I saw the seatbelt light come on, but then turning the key off and on I could only get it to come on intermittently? It would come on when I put the key into the first on position (II) stay on few a few seconds then turn off accompanied by a click from a relay but sounded like it was coming from the area of the glovebox. There is a relay called relay for safety belt buzzer I will try to pull it out and see if that does anything.

I am counting on you guys because my electrical expertise is basic, if a relay was going bad would it cause all this mess and could it short out the whole car or parts of it. I unhooked the connector to the seat belt and the seat belt light still came on intermittently?

Rob

 

Ok so I removed the seatbelt relay and there is now only a click right behind the light (?) so the other sound must have been the relay. I disconnected the seat belt wire and connected it and nothing made a difference i guess someone may have turned off the buzzer at one time. I assume it was supposed to buzz until you buckled up. Does anyones GT4 still do this?

The seatbelt lights comes on only once in about 3 to 4 tries and it does not matter if you totally remove the key between each try or not it is still strangely intermittent. I swear I have never seen it come on but I may be mistaken I did wiggle all the relay and fuses before I noticed it though.

I am just hoping its not the starter solenoid as I have heard how hard they are to remove. However could the starter cause these other gremlins?

I am giving up for tonight but I hope one of you will think of the solution to my mystery! here are some pics of the relay panel.

Could it be the ignition switch and has anyone taken them out can they be repaired or only replaced????
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The connections at the solenoid are a possibility (loose?). Ground issues are most likely.

 

Have you checked the connection from the battery minus post to ground?

 

I believe on the early 308 that they used the "starter relay" to put a full +12V onto the coils (bypassing the ballast resistors) during starter motor cranking -- doesn't really have anything to do with the battery-to-key-to-solenoid-to-starter food chain.

The good news is that your 4-way connector is accessible -- wouldn't hurt to unplug, check for corrosion, clean (if necessary), and reseat IMO:
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I just got back from dinner and after a few Morettis I'm starting to think. If it was the starter why were the other lights etc not working when the key was at the II position. If it is a ground problem maybe it is this disconnect. I have had it for 15 years and used it allot but wondering if the ground was intermittent wouldn't it have had problems running also? Maybe it is the key switch, which would make sense because it is the one single thing tied to all the problems.......

* running great in position II but dies when turned to III intermittently
* seat belt sign works sometimes in position II other times intermittently
* everything wont work with key out in position I even though normally does intermittently.

Seems like this switch is the central switching device in all these items, but what to do next?

My god this look harder to change than the starter, has anyone ever removed one, and if you did would you have to destroy the dash?? Do you think spraying contact cleaner in it might work, has anyone seen the insides of one of these???

On my seat belt sign, my wife says she has never seen it light up also and I swear I have never seen it. Here s a picture of the parts book where someone wrote before me seat belt relay #22 centralina. The #21 cinculina I think means buzzer. Does anyone have one of these working?

Steve, If I can get that 4 connector apart what would I clean it with, contact cleaner? Does the battery + side go here first or straight to the starter?

Sorry for so many questions. Im used to mechanical problems and this is very frustrating as because it is intermittent it is hard to get a handle on it in my mind!!

DGS, the ground is secure at the battery end i just replaced the battery and checked it. The starter end and ground strap I worked on recently and my car is pretty clean so these things are something I give attention to detail with. Boy I guess my window switches will take a back seat to this!!!

Rob
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Those are the parts and mine does work. Someone had unplugged it in the past and when I reconnected it, it worked from then on. It does work properly - if the seatbelt isn't plugged in when you turn the key to II position, the light AND buzzer will come on. If the seatbelt is plugged in when you turn the key to II position, only the light will come on. This system is obviously activated by a switch in the driver's side seatbelt buckle (but before car #10176, they also had switches in the seat-bottom padding and shift lever too). It also works when you leave the key in the ignition, unbuckle the seatbelt and open up the door - it will buzz until the key is removed. Only the buzzer will come on in that instance, not the seatbelt warning light.

Man, this problem of yours is quite tricky as it seems to be inconsistant. My car never had one of those disconnect switches at the battery terminal and I'm glad it didn't. Try removing it and hooking the cable up to the battery directly. Those things get wonky after a few years - I don't trust them.

The engine start-up relay was used only up to car #10176, so you won't find that on yours.

 

Rob,
If you do find that it's the ignition switch, read John Corbani's Dino Saga 050911. He presents an interesting approach to repairing and 'preserving' the switch.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Even if you determine your ignition switch is OK, you might want to adopt his flyback diode concept.

Also, read & see more here (incl pics & part no)

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Corbani's Dino Sagas pertain to his '72 246 type E, but are often adaptable to 308s. If you haven't already done so, check 'em out; use the index for reference

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Also, have you seen these 308 wiring diagrams? 'might come in handy!

http://www.ferrari308gtbi.com/

Cheers,
Coop

(Rob, my reply is a repost from your question in the 308/328/Mondial Forum...for the sake of continuity.)

 

Rob,
All the symptoms point to the ignition switch.

Here's a workable link to Corbani's thread:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74532

(Coop, you can't just cut & paste a link from another post as the full link isn't being displayed, you have to either go to the thread being linked to & copy the URL, or else do a quote of the post with the link, copy the URL out of the quote, then don't save the quote.)

IIRC, there was a 308 ignition switch repair thread a couple of years ago.

I haven't had the dubious pleasure of having to pull one of the ignition switches apart yet, so can't offer much more.

BTW, if it is a switch, & you can't obtain a replacement electrical section, I believe I have a source in Italy for it. Isn't going to be cheap between the Euro exchange rate, and a whopping international FedEx fee tho, so best if you can find it here.

 

Rob,

If you need the electrical section of the ignition switch, I've usually got a few new ones, in hand. They're reasonably priced and, with a bit of "body twisting" can be changed without pulling the entire assembly out from the column. Just PM me if you need one..

Regards,
David

 

I wasn't thinking about anything exotic/liquid for cleaning the 4-way connector -- more of a wire brush or scraping tool, if necessary, for some obvious crud, if any, and maybe tightening up the female gripping parts with a pair of pliers, if possible. If it looks and feels reasonable/normal, the physical reseating (sliding) action should refresh the connections.

Agree with Coop and Verell that you’ve got a lot of symptoms that seem ignition key switch related (things working with no key that usually don’t), but, even with no ignition switch at all, the headlights, door lights, etc. should work (with no key) so maybe you’ve got two things going on – a flaky ignition switch that didn’t hamper operation so you didn’t notice the quirks much, and now a more serious problem that does hamper operation so you’re noticing the ignition key weirdness since you’re now looking closely at things. Just a thought, but shows why we need an accurate report of the symptoms so lets us know if you have anything else strange/different to report.

 

This sounds like a complicated one. It may take some wire tracing with a meter to track down.

I'm not sure I follow that comment, "* everything wont work with key out in position I even though normally does intermittently".

When the car is sitting with the keys out, there are things that should be running, that don't go through the key switch or keyed relays at all: clock, door lights, etc. (Radio? Stock wiring would have it unswitched, although many installs will rig up an ignition relay for it.) The unswitched services aren't operated by the key switch, but usually will go through the fuse panel.

When unswitched things stop working intermittently, that sounds like a bad connection. When the switch can cause unswitched things to stop working for a while, that could be an overloaded connection or something screwy on the relay board or fuse panel.

On the 328, the fuse panel and relay board are the same multilayer circuit board. I don't see any fuses on your relay board -- is there a separate fuse panel?


One thing: when everything (including door lights, clock, etc) stop, you've fiddled with a few things and found it working again. Have you tried turning the key off and doing nothing at all, to see if it comes back on its own (unrelated to the parts you were looking at)?

If it comes back by itself, you might want to wait by the car and see if there's a "click" from a relay as it comes alive again.

If not, maybe cycling the battery disconnect was just a power reset -- by disconnecting power, you reset something that was connected wrong.

This sounds like it could be a crossed circuit in the relay board, or a connector that gets out of alignment and disconnects when it warms up (from additional current through it).


Intermittent electrical problems can be a bear to track down. I had one in my interior lights (et al) on my 328, and even with a meter and the wiring diagram it was hard to trace. (It wound up being a burned connector on the relay panel.) When the issue first appeared, thumping the dashboard made it come back once or twice.

So a bad connection can be vibration sensitive --- although mine never did seem to go bad while driving, only when first starting up. After that, if it worked, it stayed working, and if off, it stayed off.

When you're looking at your 4-way connection, check to see if any pins are loose in the shell, so they might not be connecting solidly.

 

Hi Rob
Yet another possibility:
I had similar issues at one time. Traced to an intermittent battery ground cable. The crimp at the chassis end was failing on ocassion. A new cable did the job.

The 4 way connector is also a likely spot.
But you did mention: "The starter end and ground strap I worked on recently and my car is pretty clean so these things are something I give attention to detail with." Generally speaking when troubleshooting you always go back to the last thing you touched., worst thing is to move forward from there. Often you can add even more problems while the root cause is still there. In this case I would wonder about those ends of the connection since beforre that things were fine.
The starter relay that you mention is indeed for the ballast resistor bypass. Most cars don't have that installed for one reason or another.

Gerrit

 

Robert,
I went through my electrical system this spring replacing the fuse boxes and relays after the dreaded "meltdown". Tracing my wires I found that someone had miswired the fuse box doubling the high load on one fuse causing the failure. While trying to understand the wiring system I went through the whole car until things made sense.

The "seatbelt & key in the ignition switch" systems are somewhat of a band-aid enginering solution. There are 2 circuits in the switch (each seperately powered), one for all the stuff one would expect in an ignition switch and another for the buzzer/light requirments. Inserting the key into the switch closes the contacts to activate the buzzer/light system. Power then flows to the buzzer (the door switch continues the circuit to ground if the door is open) and to the seatbelt relay. Fastening the seatbelt closes the circuit to ground which activates the relay which in turns off the seatbelt light. All of this depends on the key closing the circuit inside the ignition switch. Jiggling the key, regardless of "position" may effect this circuit if the ign. switch is worn (aren't they all?).

All that is separate from the "normal" ign. switch duties. Positions 2 & 3 power various fuses and relays as needed.

My series 2 may be a little different than your car but it should be very close. My wiring diagram (about 3' x 4' for these old eyes) is in my car about 25 miles away so I don't have my notes in front of me. Intermitent failures, especially when everything "dies" when a switch is activated, often means that there is resistance at some point in the electrical loop. Because you recently replaced the battery, I would check the battery cable ends (cable to clamp) and the chassis connection of the ground cable. Moving the cables around when replacing the battery could have caused continuity problems.The ground connection is often overlooked and a good electrical contact there is essential during any troubleshooting.

 

I appreciate all of your comments, I am still not what is causing my problem but. I have ruled out the battery ground since the car would not start but then once started ran great, wouldn't it die if the ground was bad. I also know that the battery is fully charged and that my ground strap from the engine to the car is tight I cant say for the starter one but I had it apart a year ago and the car has run great since then. The four post connection looks good and all the relays and fuses are tight and functional. After reading John C.'s story he had two ignition switches go bad since had the car and a local Factory Ferrari mechanic and gt4 owner said the switches were know to go bad. I still have not ruled out any of your other suggestions but will start here, since turning the key started all these events.

My theory is that this switch somehow controls everything. It was easy to remove (2 hours on my back) I noticed that in the parts manual there is a bolt in the back of the key lock where it goes in the steering assembly, as you can see the hole is empty on mine. Also does anyone know what this connection on the bottom of the key part is with the rubber hose it turns but would not come out does anyone know how to remove it? It is also weird that I cannot find the ignition switch in the parts manual, but here it is. Crossing my fingers that I can get one at that it is not to expensive!!

Thanks for all your help so far this group is fantastic!!!

Rob
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If the ground was "bad", the car wouldn't run at all. Your problem is an intermittent one.

One of the known issues with the earlier ignition switches was the solenoid flyback voltage. The starter solenoid is a big inductor -- and inductors resist having their current change instantaneously. So when you release the start position of the switch, the solenoid can create a large negative voltage spike (V = L*dI/dt), which can cause arcing in the "start" contacts of the ignition switch, leading to excess wear on those contacts. That can cause the starter to not engage when you turn the key to "start". But it wouldn't explain your other electrical gremlins.

Now that you have the switch out, you can check the connections before you go out and buy another.

I gather you have the wiring diagram. In book form?
(Fold outs from the owner's manual? My '79 Alfa still had the wiring diagram in the owner's manual. It wasn't until the '80s that Big Brother decided that the little people shouldn't know how the seat belt buzzer worked. But then, the Alfa doesn't have much wiring.)

Are there PDFs of any wiring diagrams other than the 328s? I haven't found any others. The Ferrari wiring diagrams can be a bear to slog through, but it's worthwhile information. For example, it might tell you if your clock power goes anywhere near the ignition switch.

 

Do you mean the round object on the bottom of the assembly, with the 90 degree rubber boot covering the two black wires coming out of it?

That is the switch for the buzzer if you leave the key in the ignition.

 

I s there a way to remove it the wires are slightly exposed and I wanted to take it off to fix it?

DGS, if there was arcing in the contacts maybe the one that rotates to contact the others is fried, wouldn't that cause problems all around? I would not even know how to check it and will order a new one just to be safe. I will dissasemble the other one to check it out, if I can get a new one that is.....

I need to read a good primer book on auto electrics, if any of you has any suggestions, nothing to complex for Caveman Rob........
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Sorry, I don't know. Like I said earlier today I haven't taken one of these apart...Yet...

To me, it looks like it's one of those things that when they make it, it can't come apart after (the glovebox lid latch is one of those things; it operates a light when you open the lid with the headlights on... Man did I ever Rube Goldberg that thing to get it to work again).