Need Electrical help. Car Just Died Electrical System Completely DeadDead?

is the key-on relay hot? I'd suspect the relays, or loss of ground through the cruddy ground switch.

 

The +12V power to run everything on your 308GT4 comes back from the stater solenoid on the large red wire going to the 4-way connector:

1. Do you, or don't you, have +12V at the 4-way connector relative to a metal chassis ground, and

2. Do you, or don't you, have +12V at the 4-way connector relative to the "-" battery terminal post on the battery (not the negative cable connector -- the actual male negative post coming out of the battery case)?

Is everything dead? You mentioned the door lights not working, but is "all the stuff that usually works with the key off" (e.g., headlights) also dead?

 

Just because the battery is new and the connections "look" clean don't trust it.

A battery cutoff switch is the first place to look. Then it's process of elimination.

 

The "not working" isn't caused by "shorting out" (which would lead to a catastrophic fire/failure somewhere), but rather "loss of power or ground". If you didn't report the other (truly) bizarre behavior, I'd have said that your added cutoff switch was/is the trouble (and opening/closing a door can vibrate things enough for such gremlins to come and go). I believe the 4-way connector is behind the relay panel on the 308s, but I'm not 100% sure about that (it's essentially just a common heavy-duty connection point with 4 spade terminals where +12V is first branched to a few different places -- to things that work with the key off, to the ignition key, etc.), but if you can find it, and the problem recurs, it would still be a logical place to measure. Very unlikely that the trouble is starter or solenoid caused IMO (but you do have some mods) -- let us know what "Christine" does next

 

The connections at the solenoid are a possibility (loose?). Ground issues are most likely.

 

Have you checked the connection from the battery minus post to ground?

 

I believe on the early 308 that they used the "starter relay" to put a full +12V onto the coils (bypassing the ballast resistors) during starter motor cranking -- doesn't really have anything to do with the battery-to-key-to-solenoid-to-starter food chain.

The good news is that your 4-way connector is accessible -- wouldn't hurt to unplug, check for corrosion, clean (if necessary), and reseat IMO:
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Those are the parts and mine does work. Someone had unplugged it in the past and when I reconnected it, it worked from then on. It does work properly - if the seatbelt isn't plugged in when you turn the key to II position, the light AND buzzer will come on. If the seatbelt is plugged in when you turn the key to II position, only the light will come on. This system is obviously activated by a switch in the driver's side seatbelt buckle (but before car #10176, they also had switches in the seat-bottom padding and shift lever too). It also works when you leave the key in the ignition, unbuckle the seatbelt and open up the door - it will buzz until the key is removed. Only the buzzer will come on in that instance, not the seatbelt warning light.

Man, this problem of yours is quite tricky as it seems to be inconsistant. My car never had one of those disconnect switches at the battery terminal and I'm glad it didn't. Try removing it and hooking the cable up to the battery directly. Those things get wonky after a few years - I don't trust them.

The engine start-up relay was used only up to car #10176, so you won't find that on yours.

 

Rob,
If you do find that it's the ignition switch, read John Corbani's Dino Saga 050911. He presents an interesting approach to repairing and 'preserving' the switch.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Even if you determine your ignition switch is OK, you might want to adopt his flyback diode concept.

Also, read & see more here (incl pics & part no)

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Corbani's Dino Sagas pertain to his '72 246 type E, but are often adaptable to 308s. If you haven't already done so, check 'em out; use the index for reference

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=050911

Also, have you seen these 308 wiring diagrams? 'might come in handy!

http://www.ferrari308gtbi.com/

Cheers,
Coop

(Rob, my reply is a repost from your question in the 308/328/Mondial Forum...for the sake of continuity.)

 

Rob,
All the symptoms point to the ignition switch.

Here's a workable link to Corbani's thread:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74532

(Coop, you can't just cut & paste a link from another post as the full link isn't being displayed, you have to either go to the thread being linked to & copy the URL, or else do a quote of the post with the link, copy the URL out of the quote, then don't save the quote.)

IIRC, there was a 308 ignition switch repair thread a couple of years ago.

I haven't had the dubious pleasure of having to pull one of the ignition switches apart yet, so can't offer much more.

BTW, if it is a switch, & you can't obtain a replacement electrical section, I believe I have a source in Italy for it. Isn't going to be cheap between the Euro exchange rate, and a whopping international FedEx fee tho, so best if you can find it here.

 

Rob,

If you need the electrical section of the ignition switch, I've usually got a few new ones, in hand. They're reasonably priced and, with a bit of "body twisting" can be changed without pulling the entire assembly out from the column. Just PM me if you need one..

Regards,
David

 

I wasn't thinking about anything exotic/liquid for cleaning the 4-way connector -- more of a wire brush or scraping tool, if necessary, for some obvious crud, if any, and maybe tightening up the female gripping parts with a pair of pliers, if possible. If it looks and feels reasonable/normal, the physical reseating (sliding) action should refresh the connections.

Agree with Coop and Verell that you’ve got a lot of symptoms that seem ignition key switch related (things working with no key that usually don’t), but, even with no ignition switch at all, the headlights, door lights, etc. should work (with no key) so maybe you’ve got two things going on – a flaky ignition switch that didn’t hamper operation so you didn’t notice the quirks much, and now a more serious problem that does hamper operation so you’re noticing the ignition key weirdness since you’re now looking closely at things. Just a thought, but shows why we need an accurate report of the symptoms so lets us know if you have anything else strange/different to report.

 

This sounds like a complicated one. It may take some wire tracing with a meter to track down.

I'm not sure I follow that comment, "* everything wont work with key out in position I even though normally does intermittently".

When the car is sitting with the keys out, there are things that should be running, that don't go through the key switch or keyed relays at all: clock, door lights, etc. (Radio? Stock wiring would have it unswitched, although many installs will rig up an ignition relay for it.) The unswitched services aren't operated by the key switch, but usually will go through the fuse panel.

When unswitched things stop working intermittently, that sounds like a bad connection. When the switch can cause unswitched things to stop working for a while, that could be an overloaded connection or something screwy on the relay board or fuse panel.

On the 328, the fuse panel and relay board are the same multilayer circuit board. I don't see any fuses on your relay board -- is there a separate fuse panel?


One thing: when everything (including door lights, clock, etc) stop, you've fiddled with a few things and found it working again. Have you tried turning the key off and doing nothing at all, to see if it comes back on its own (unrelated to the parts you were looking at)?

If it comes back by itself, you might want to wait by the car and see if there's a "click" from a relay as it comes alive again.

If not, maybe cycling the battery disconnect was just a power reset -- by disconnecting power, you reset something that was connected wrong.

This sounds like it could be a crossed circuit in the relay board, or a connector that gets out of alignment and disconnects when it warms up (from additional current through it).


Intermittent electrical problems can be a bear to track down. I had one in my interior lights (et al) on my 328, and even with a meter and the wiring diagram it was hard to trace. (It wound up being a burned connector on the relay panel.) When the issue first appeared, thumping the dashboard made it come back once or twice.

So a bad connection can be vibration sensitive --- although mine never did seem to go bad while driving, only when first starting up. After that, if it worked, it stayed working, and if off, it stayed off.

When you're looking at your 4-way connection, check to see if any pins are loose in the shell, so they might not be connecting solidly.

 

Hi Rob
Yet another possibility:
I had similar issues at one time. Traced to an intermittent battery ground cable. The crimp at the chassis end was failing on ocassion. A new cable did the job.

The 4 way connector is also a likely spot.
But you did mention: "The starter end and ground strap I worked on recently and my car is pretty clean so these things are something I give attention to detail with." Generally speaking when troubleshooting you always go back to the last thing you touched., worst thing is to move forward from there. Often you can add even more problems while the root cause is still there. In this case I would wonder about those ends of the connection since beforre that things were fine.
The starter relay that you mention is indeed for the ballast resistor bypass. Most cars don't have that installed for one reason or another.

Gerrit

 

Robert,
I went through my electrical system this spring replacing the fuse boxes and relays after the dreaded "meltdown". Tracing my wires I found that someone had miswired the fuse box doubling the high load on one fuse causing the failure. While trying to understand the wiring system I went through the whole car until things made sense.

The "seatbelt & key in the ignition switch" systems are somewhat of a band-aid enginering solution. There are 2 circuits in the switch (each seperately powered), one for all the stuff one would expect in an ignition switch and another for the buzzer/light requirments. Inserting the key into the switch closes the contacts to activate the buzzer/light system. Power then flows to the buzzer (the door switch continues the circuit to ground if the door is open) and to the seatbelt relay. Fastening the seatbelt closes the circuit to ground which activates the relay which in turns off the seatbelt light. All of this depends on the key closing the circuit inside the ignition switch. Jiggling the key, regardless of "position" may effect this circuit if the ign. switch is worn (aren't they all?).

All that is separate from the "normal" ign. switch duties. Positions 2 & 3 power various fuses and relays as needed.

My series 2 may be a little different than your car but it should be very close. My wiring diagram (about 3' x 4' for these old eyes) is in my car about 25 miles away so I don't have my notes in front of me. Intermitent failures, especially when everything "dies" when a switch is activated, often means that there is resistance at some point in the electrical loop. Because you recently replaced the battery, I would check the battery cable ends (cable to clamp) and the chassis connection of the ground cable. Moving the cables around when replacing the battery could have caused continuity problems.The ground connection is often overlooked and a good electrical contact there is essential during any troubleshooting.

 

If the ground was "bad", the car wouldn't run at all. Your problem is an intermittent one.

One of the known issues with the earlier ignition switches was the solenoid flyback voltage. The starter solenoid is a big inductor -- and inductors resist having their current change instantaneously. So when you release the start position of the switch, the solenoid can create a large negative voltage spike (V = L*dI/dt), which can cause arcing in the "start" contacts of the ignition switch, leading to excess wear on those contacts. That can cause the starter to not engage when you turn the key to "start". But it wouldn't explain your other electrical gremlins.

Now that you have the switch out, you can check the connections before you go out and buy another.

I gather you have the wiring diagram. In book form?
(Fold outs from the owner's manual? My '79 Alfa still had the wiring diagram in the owner's manual. It wasn't until the '80s that Big Brother decided that the little people shouldn't know how the seat belt buzzer worked. But then, the Alfa doesn't have much wiring.)

Are there PDFs of any wiring diagrams other than the 328s? I haven't found any others. The Ferrari wiring diagrams can be a bear to slog through, but it's worthwhile information. For example, it might tell you if your clock power goes anywhere near the ignition switch.

 

Do you mean the round object on the bottom of the assembly, with the 90 degree rubber boot covering the two black wires coming out of it?

That is the switch for the buzzer if you leave the key in the ignition.

 

Sorry, I don't know. Like I said earlier today I haven't taken one of these apart...Yet...

To me, it looks like it's one of those things that when they make it, it can't come apart after (the glovebox lid latch is one of those things; it operates a light when you open the lid with the headlights on... Man did I ever Rube Goldberg that thing to get it to work again).